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POST OP
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04/28/07 23:04
Randy_H 

Moderator

Aviod POST OP if Possible

Yep, if you search the old BioS Forum records you might find a case of crankiness with *my* name on it :-) Because NA is still so removed from the mainstream of CHS thinking it is, I suppose, understandable that someone would view my passion for NA with suspicion if not a little disdain. Oh Well.

04/29/07 01:27
Mark_D 
Re: POST OP

Diane:

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Incidentally, I do agree with Craggy that we should sympathize with Meeg's situation.

Like the rest of us, Meeg has to deal with a potentially debilitating disease. That’s not fun, whether you’re in your 50’s (me) or your 30s (Meeg).

And, yes, Craggy, Randy H. is more than capable of defending himself.

In fact, because I suffer from bilateral Dupuytren’s Disease, I hope that Randy never, ever needs me to come to his rescue with my “fists up”. I’m afraid that my hands are not up to the challenge of fisticuffs.

Perhaps Craggy is also correct in saying that I was “over the top in {my} criticisms of Meeg”.

If that’s the case, then I’m sorry. But, I just cringed when I saw the mean-spirited things that were said about Randy:

“whether you get paid by {Dr. Eaton}, are brainwashed, or just really closed-minded... *Randy H*--challenge me...I'm sure you can't ignore this post, Dr. E. or your oversized sense of self won't let you.”

Randy deserves much better than that. I guess I became “cranky” when I read those words.

But, let me admit that Meeg may simply not have realized how hurtful her words were. I hope that she will continue to participate in our discussions – her input will be more than welcome on this Forum.

My suggestion is that we (Mark D included) do our best to squelch personal, ad-hominem attacks on this Forum. We’ll all benefit if we treat each other with sympathy & respect.

Mark

04/29/07 10:21
craggy 
Re: POST OP

Enough has probably been said already. We all suffer from DC, and we all hope that whatever treatment we commit to will help us in the shortterm and longterm. At least we have the choice! Back in the 60s (this is in the UK) my dad was refused treatment on the grounds that he was retired, and his daily pleasure (playing the piano) was unimportant! And he never went back (but managed still to play, right up until he died, aged 82)

One thought - is Meeg a troll? After all, we've not heard from her again, so think on that, all those hot-under-the-collar folk. Have you noticed the number of views of this thread? Far more than anything else. So who is it? Come clean! Come out, where ever you are!

Cheers R

04/30/07 19:25
Randy_H 

Moderator

We have no Trolls

craggy,

Meeg can't be a Troll as defined on the old BioS site where a person's posting name was hijacked by another pretending to be the original person. This site uses registered usernames and passwords to prevent that. Meeg is just another example of someone who is either uninformed about NA and not shy about his/her disdain, OR Meeg is a contrarian, or both.

The reason this thread is so popular is that while NA is currently the *only* alternative to Open Surgery it remains controversial because of the intransigent resistance to it by most hand surgeons. To be honest, it was the controversy and the heated discussions on the old BioS Forum that lead many to examine the facts carefully and give NA a try. So in that sense a public challenge against NA and those who would champion it turn out for the good. The use of personal attacks, however, discredit those making the charges and weaken their positions.

04/30/07 21:45
craggy 
Re: POST OP

... but I'm not a registered user and nor is Meeg1972 (and you'd have thought by now that she would have responded to some of the comments made, and some of the flak aimed in her direction) so we could be anyone. Come to think of it, I might be Meeg1972, just stirring things up a bit, and perhaps I'm not Craggy, but someone else entirely, registered with a password or not.

A couple of years ago I pointed a fellow-climber (on a UK climbing forum) with DC to the old Biospecifics site. Although he thanked me for the info, I later saw him write to another thus "Don't go near that (Biospecifics) site. They're a bunch of psychopaths pretending to be doctors" (however, he did also say that no way would he have surgery, but would try NA, if-and-when)

An unrelated (to POST OP) fact is the significantly higher incidence of male UK climbers (the survey asked over 1000 members of the Climbers Club - quite an elite group actually - to report on their state of hands. 500+ replied) having DC. Something like 19% it in some form or other. Higher than the general population, I think

I read some of the debates in the old forum, but was more swayed by Dr Dubois' account of the practice of NA, and how to recognise the various stages etc than I was by the arguments put forward on that Forum.

Cheers R

05/01/07 00:06
Randy_H 

Moderator

That's an interesting finding about climbers craggy. As I recall only about 5% of the US population has some level of Dups and I doubt that UK is a lot higher. 19% is significantly high for a UK population. My personal suspicion is that the number of people carrying at least some DNA predisposition for Dups is higher than that 19% number, but most never manifest symptoms unless they experience strong trauma to the hands or wrist. The number of Dups sufferers on the BioS Forum that saw a correlation between trauma and onset was quite high. I know of no study supporting this conclusion, but it seems reasonable.

Correction: *Registered* posters can't be Trolled, nor can they act as a Troll while logged on. That's why anyone who wants to be a "regular" around here should register their name. Trolling nearly shut down the BioS Forum discussions before the Spammers finally succeed. That's why this site was designed to eliminate *both*. Nice to have you here craggy.

05/01/07 03:07
jim_h 
Re: POST OP

I'd like to see an ethnic breakdown of the climbers' group. Dupuytren's has been linked to a genetic anomaly apparently originating in a Viking/Nordic population. Those populations surely include a lot of mountain climbers.

05/01/07 17:55
Issleib 

Moderator

Re: POST OP

Trauma to the hands of someone geneticaly predisposed can certainly trigger Duputryn's. It's in the literature. And the Canadian equlivant of workmans compensation recognises vibration as a trigger. I used to play in a handbell choir. I played the big base bells until my shoulder told me to move up to bells a little lighter. If I was still ringing I'd ask at the next handbell invitational.

05/01/07 21:10
ntsc 
Re: POST OP

When I broke two metacarpals my surgeon told me to expect a Dupuytrens onset. He was right. Prior to that I had had surgery on one 5th finger which was 40+ deg locked at the PIP.

Since then I've had surgery on 8 different fingers including both thumbs, some more than once. All open surgery as well. While it is the most agressive case ever seen at NYU, more agressive ones are in the records. All this in a 12 year period. However while the duputrens is still there it isn't in either of the fingers which are still candidates for NA. Scar tissue problem. The last two years are the longest I've gone without surgery in the last 10 years, more than once I've had two surgeries in one year. I've also had carpal tunnel surgery at the same time as dups surgery.

Fortunetly I have a good relationship with my surgeon and with my therapist. I also heal very well and very rapidly, enough so that for my last surgery the surgeon only kept me in a hard splint for 48 hours. I had surgery on Tuesday and my first PT on that Friday.

To speak to another topic in this thread. I've been aware of and posted on the other web site for a number of years. Randy H comes across as a little too strong that one is foolish for considering anything but NA. The last time I looked at one of the US NA sites (I think Eaton), the Doctor was quite clear that some case were not candidates for NA but only for a more conventional approach.

05/01/07 23:24
Randy_H 

Moderator

NA is not appropriate for very aggressive cases

ntsc,

Thanks for joining us on this new Forum. You have been on quite a journey with our shared disease. At the vary lease your post should remind a number of us that things could be worse.

I'm surprised that with the aggressiveness off you disease you did not mention skin grafting. Many believe that it seems to be the best fire wall against recurrence. It certainly sounds as if your case may be too aggressive for NA, which is unfortunate.

You are correct that years ago many on the BioS Forum looked at NA vs OS as and "Eithor/Or" proposition. It was NA vs OS. I have not held that view for quite some time. I believe that NA should be viewed as an entry level solution before moving up the ladder of invasiveness to full OS. (Higher rates of recurrence is the problem with NA) Then if OS does not stop recurrence the last resort is skin grafting. My assertion is that it is Eaton's hope and prediction that well over half of new cases can use NA indefinitely and not ever need to move up the ladder to more invasive procedure. Yes, NA is not appropriate for very aggressive cases.

Also I hope I am also clear that the goal of those who support NA should be that fellow patients become fully aware that NA is a viable, proven and safe option. What they do with the information is their business. Unfortunately most CHS will not give them that information, and/or advise against it. I certainly fit the description of someone who is determined to help circumvent this misinformation.

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