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Consistent pain and progression after RT
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01/21/2015 03:11
Phaneo 
01/21/2015 03:11
Phaneo 
Consistent pain and progression after RT

I completed radiotherapy in July 2014 with Dr Ghafoori in Austin Texas. Since that time I have had an additional four nodules appear on my right hand. I have also experienced consistent aching and throbbing pain in my right hand as well. I feel that the disease is progressing more rapidly than before I had the treatment. Has anyone else had this experience? I know there's no looking back and I believe that I made the right choice however since that time I have been in more pain in my hand is rapidly progressing. I'm 38 years old and just noticed the first nodule last January. So within one year I have gone from one small nodule to a full-blown cord on my ring finger with additional large nodules on my thumb, pinky, index finger, and middle finger.
Thanks.

    01/21/2015 08:31
    spanishbuddha 

    Administrator

    01/21/2015 08:31
    spanishbuddha 

    Administrator

    Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

    Phaneo:
    I completed radiotherapy in July 2014 with Dr Ghafoori in Austin Texas. Since that time I have had an additional four nodules appear on my right hand. I have also experienced consistent aching and throbbing pain in my right hand as well. I feel that the disease is progressing more rapidly than before I had the treatment. Has anyone else had this experience? I know there's no looking back and I believe that I made the right choice however since that time I have been in more pain in my hand is rapidly progressing. I'm 38 years old and just noticed the first nodule last January. So within one year I have gone from one small nodule to a full-blown cord on my ring finger with additional large nodules on my thumb, pinky, index finger, and middle finger.
    Thanks.
    Hi Phaneo

    You had RT for the right hand? Your post is not explicit but I would guess that's the case. RT needs to be done at the appropriate time, active symptoms with proliferation or growth. It's difficult to assess that precisely, and I was turned down for RT on one hand first time I presented, as being 'too early' even though I had nodules and skin changes. Who made that call in your case? Even then the apparent success rate is (only) something like 70-85%, so it does not work for all, and others on here have posted about a failure of RT to hold back the disease for them. Alas you may be in that category. I would question the precise treatment and protocol that was done as a comparison against that being done in Hamburg, and the experience of Dr Ghafoori, although that won't help you now.

    Also, others have reported very rapid progression, but not linked to RT, such as nodule to cord and beginning contracture in 3 months or so.

    I'm not sure what to suggest next, sounds like you have quite aggressive development, at relatively young age. It might settle down, the majority do, but if not NA or Xiaflex are probably the next step if you do get a contracture.

    Best wishes

    SB

      01/21/2015 21:09
      Molloy 
      01/21/2015 21:09
      Molloy 
      Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

      Phaneo,
      I think SB is right to ask about your doctor's experience with RT for DD. I see from a quick online search that he has wonderful general credentials (Harvard medical degree, research grants from important national institutions); but do you know how long he's been doing RT for Dupuytren's patients?

      I would note too something that has become more apparent to me as I've read through the research literature on RT for DD. Namely, that there's not a lot of it, and it all more or less seems to be coming from the same people--Seegenschmiedt, essentially.

      It always makes me a little nervous when there's not a wider base of research data on which to evaluate and make decisions about treatments. And even when you read Seegenschmiedt's work closely, you find plenty of things that complicate the idea that RT is a panacea, or even a more or less reliable and unproblematic strategy for dealing with the disease. In the big book Seegenschmiedt co-edited on Dupuytren's with Eaton and a number of other important figures in the field, he acknowledges that, from patient standpoint, overall satisfaction with the disease progress 5 years after for those who had received RT was not exactly stunning: only about 50% of those who had RT were satisfied. Granted, this is against only 10% of those who did not have RT, but it still means half of those who had RT, whatever the 'objective' reading of their status on the part of the medical staff, were dissatisfied with where they were. That figure is not all that comforting.

      I say all of this in the context of wrestling mightily with whether or not to pursue RT myself, as I'm in early stage after diagnosis about a month ago. Part of me is greatly drawn by the shiny side of Seegenschmiedt's data and some of the reports I've read from those who've had the treatment, but my skeptical side is, well, more skeptical. Seegenschmiedt has after all been writing about this for a few decades now. It's difficult for me to understand why the idea has gotten so little traction outside of his circle after so much time. Or am I failing to find research literature on the results of RT by people other than Seegenschmiedt and those around him? SpanishBuddha? Wach?
      best,
      Molloy

        01/21/2015 21:39
        Stefan_K. 
        01/21/2015 21:39
        Stefan_K. 

        Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

        Molloy, you are raising good points and questions (especially for someone who has been diagnosed only recently). I am also very interested in the answers. Having said that, even if the objective positive effect was only let's say half of the reported subjective improvement (50% satisfied vs. 10% = x 5), it would still seem worth trying.

          01/22/2015 00:38
          Molloy 
          01/22/2015 00:38
          Molloy 
          Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

          Stefan_K.:
          Molloy, you are raising good points and questions (especially for someone who has been diagnosed only recently). I am also very interested in the answers. Having said that, even if the objective positive effect was only let's say half of the reported subjective improvement (50% satisfied vs. 10% = x 5), it would still seem worth trying.

          Stefan, of course I agree that 50% is quite a bit better than 10%, and I'm leaning at this point toward doing RT, though an important question seems to be where. I just wish we had some more broadly based data on this. The people who post on this site in general, in my limited experience here at least, are pretty careful about presenting what is known about likely outcomes of RT with nuance and caution. I think though that it's fairly easy (and probably a natural tendency for someone who has had good personal outcome) for advocates to make it sound rosier than the very limited data actually suggest.

          I'm still very much trying to orient myself with respect to this and every other aspect of the disease and don't know nearly enough, am trying to read everything I can get my hands on and frustrated by the fact that there seems so little in the way of research on RT outcomes. It's an added frustration that the GPs and hand surgeons I've talked to about this to this point seem to know nothing at all of use in trying to figure out the possible benefits of RT.

          best,
          Molloy

            01/22/2015 01:01
            Molloy 
            01/22/2015 01:01
            Molloy 
            Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

            spanishbuddha:
            Hi Phaneo

            You had RT for the right hand? Your post is not explicit but I would guess that's the case. RT needs to be done at the appropriate time, active symptoms with proliferation or growth. It's difficult to assess that precisely, and I was turned down for RT on one hand first time I presented, as being 'too early' even though I had nodules and skin changes. Who made that call in your case? Even then the apparent success rate is (only) something like 70-85%, so it does not work for all, and others on here have posted about a failure of RT to hold back the disease for them. Alas you may be in that category. I would question the precise treatment and protocol that was done as a comparison against that being done in Hamburg, and the experience of Dr Ghafoori, although that won't help you now.

            Also, others have reported very rapid progression, but not linked to RT, such as nodule to cord and beginning contracture in 3 months or so.

            I'm not sure what to suggest next, sounds like you have quite aggressive development, at relatively young age. It might settle down, the majority do, but if not NA or Xiaflex are probably the next step if you do get a contracture.

            Best wishes

            SB

            SpanishBuddha,
            What was the reasoning you were given as to why it was too early (i.e., what characteristics served to define "too early") for that hand? And did you ultimately get RT done on it?
            best,
            Molloy

              01/22/2015 02:10
              Phaneo 
              01/22/2015 02:10
              Phaneo 
              Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

              His credentials are great but I'm not sure how long he has been treating DC. I did ask how many patients he's treated and what the outcomes were and got a rather vague answer. I'm guessing it was because he didn't want to give any false sense of hope. I would also add his staff seemed somewhat unfamiliar with the process but were all very nice and comforting. I also asked what dosage I was receiving as I had read the standard protocol. He responded with I think 3000 centigrade. I asked if that was the same as 30 Gys and he said yes. If that's the case I got the standard treatment.

              All I know is that six months after RT on my right hand the disease has progressed more than it did in the six prior to treatment. I would also like to add that I was told there was a chance the RT could make it worse, a small chance but nonetheless, a chance. I did a lot of research as well and found many medical journal articles from other sources to respond to Molloy's question(I used medical databases at the university I was studying at).All research seemed promising so I made the choice. I also had a similar experience in that both hand surgeons I saw were unfamiliar with RT and I saw the head of hand surgery at a large academic based hospital in Dallas.

              I can't say I regret it because that would do me no good, but I do wonder if it caused the rapid progression and pain. I literally noticed a small nodule about a month ago under my thumb, it is now as large as a pea and visible to the naked eye am in constant pain. I guess all I can do is wait.

                01/22/2015 06:47
                wach 

                Administrator

                01/22/2015 06:47
                wach 

                Administrator

                Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                He probably meant 3000 centigray, which makes 30 Gy.

                It is unlikely that RT triggred aggressive Dupuytren's. More likely your Dupuytren's has unfortunately been aggressive already. RT is not able to stop new nodules that develop after treatment, it can only slow down growth of already existing, irradiated nodules. It is pretty impossible to predict individually how effective RT is. A comparison of two treated groups with an untreated control group showed the benefit of RT for Dupuytren's http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...697-7_44#page-1 but that's only on an average.

                Wolfgang

                Phaneo:
                ... I also asked what dosage I was receiving as I had read the standard protocol. He responded with I think 3000 centigrade. I asked if that was the same as 30 Gys and he said yes. If that's the case I got the standard treatment.
                ...

                  01/22/2015 07:09
                  spanishbuddha 

                  Administrator

                  01/22/2015 07:09
                  spanishbuddha 

                  Administrator

                  Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                  Molloy:


                  SpanishBuddha,
                  What was the reasoning you were given as to why it was too early (i.e., what characteristics served to define "too early") for that hand? And did you ultimately get RT done on it?
                  best,
                  Molloy
                  ProfS in Hamburg uses a weighted scoring system from a consultation that covers questions about general health, background, age, lifestyle, symptoms and duration, and of course a physical exam of the hand or foot. I had one nodule that had appeared quite recently, one soft cord, some minor skin changes but few other symptoms (no aches, tingling, soreness, etc. Three years later I did have RT after soreness developed, and the nodule increased with development of a cord.

                    01/22/2015 07:35
                    spanishbuddha 

                    Administrator

                    01/22/2015 07:35
                    spanishbuddha 

                    Administrator

                    Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                    Molloy:
                    I say all of this in the context of wrestling mightily with whether or not to pursue RT myself, as I'm in early stage after diagnosis about a month ago. Part of me is greatly drawn by the shiny side of Seegenschmiedt's data and some of the reports I've read from those who've had the treatment, but my skeptical side is, well, more skeptical. Seegenschmiedt has after all been writing about this for a few decades now. It's difficult for me to understand why the idea has gotten so little traction outside of his circle after so much time. Or am I failing to find research literature on the results of RT by people other than ? SpanishBuddha? Wach?
                    best,
                    Molloy
                    I don't think I'm in a position to answer this adequately, "Seegenschmiedt and those around him". The phrase "those around him" is hard to get past, as those around him are others working in the same field which is what you would expect. ProfsS publishes his data as papers or in books, and others do to, with some available on PubMed but not all, for both Dupuytren's and Ledderhose and other conditions as well. He also presents at international conferences, and invites his peers who are doing the same treatment to do their own research, collect data, and publish too. It's up to others to step up and for more of them to publish their results as well. The only negative responses I have seen is from hand surgeons, but that has been so far in private correspondence and was refuted. He does not claim a cure, or prevention, just a slow down or halt in existing proliferation for the majority. That is anecdotally reflected by experience reported here and elsewhere.

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