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Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA
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10/03/2007 02:16
ceegee 
10/03/2007 02:16
ceegee 
Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

I am a new member to this forum but have been following it and doing a LOT of research for about five years. I was diagnosed then with DD by a prominent hand surgeon at Duke Medical Center (not Dr. Goldner). I had DD in both hands (curvature in middle and ring finger on left hand) and both feet and was told that there was nothing I could do to make it better or worse, and he would see me back in "a few" years for the open hand surgery. (He did mention the possibility of Collagenase being approved by then but doubted it.)
I then went to a plastic surgeon who practices conventional and alternative medicine. She put me on an enzyme therapy(serrapeptase, nattokinase, COQ10),told me to gently massage the nodules but NOT to stretch them. (She showed me a stretching technique like the one on Dr. Eaton's website) She also suggested that I eat less red meat.(I was actually on the Atkins diet when diagnosed.) I can not tell you how much better I became. I almost forgot that I had DD. The nodules in my hands and feet became smaller, softer,NO pain, and could straighten my fingers. I was doing GREAT and ready to show the first doctor "which finger"I could now straighten. Then six months ago I sustained a freakish injury to the ring finger on my left hand and had to have my rings cut off. In that amount of time the DD has come back with a vengeance.(Only to that finger, so I am definitely a believer in trauma being a big factor). 45%curvature, huge nodule, and lots of pain!
After much research I got in touch with Dr. Eaton at the Hand Center, emailed pictures of my hand, he quickly responded that I was an excellent candidate for the procedure and thought it would have a great outcome. I was on the phone with his office, made an appointment for Dec. 18th, and was discusssing travel with his secretary. She asked me where I would be coming from. When I told her, I just laughed and said, "Yeah, 15 minutes from Duke Medical Center, wouldn't you think I could have it done here?" She said that she thought there was a surgeon at Duke doing NA, Dr. Richard Goldner,(koodos to a very qualified hand surgeon for opening his mind to this!) He went to Jupiter to learn the procedure from Dr. Eaton. He has only been doing the surgery since January 07 and his office says he has done about 50 to 60 NAs with great success. I now have a consultation appointment with him in two weeks. His office was great as well, and he responded to the emailed pics very quickly.It seems like fate the way it happened, but I also feel like Dr. Eaton is probably the best in the country. I HATE flying but was ready to go! But now to know I am 15 minutes away from a very qualified hand surgeon doing this procedure I can't decide. My family is split down the middle (NOT helping). I keep thinking if I do have any complications I'm 15 minutes away from the doctor! Has anyone been to Dr Goldner or heard of him performing NA?
Is this a no brainer and just go to Duke?
Thanks for any thoughts!

    10/03/2007 05:34
    Randy_H 
    10/03/2007 05:34
    Randy_H 

    Surgeon at Duke doing NA

    ceeqee,

    Any CHS with just a little instruction should be able to do excellent NA. This is a very simple procedure for a hand surgeon. However, any surgeon will tell you that the MCP is easier than the PIP (second) joint. Which joint needs correction? PIP is a tad more difficult to master than the MCP.

      10/04/2007 00:28
      Joe 
      10/04/2007 00:28
      Joe 
      Re: Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

      CeeGee, I would be interested in the amount of those supplements you were taking. Did you make any other lifestyle changes? Here are pictures of my hand. http://www.kineoptics.com/stuff.html

      How exactly were you massaging your nodules? With anything?

      Thanks!

        10/04/2007 11:55
        ceegee 
        10/04/2007 11:55
        ceegee 
        Re: Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

        Hi Joe and Randy

        Joe, neither doctor mentioned a problem with the PIP, but since I can't straighten my finger at that joint, I don't know?!? You made me feel better about a CHS being able to perform this procedure so I am definitely keeping my consultation appointment on the 15th. I am very lucky to be here near Duke and be able to have him look at my hands and explain the procedure before I decide. (I haven't cancelled yet with Dr. Eaton since it's two months away)

        Randy, I am glad you are interested in the alternative therapy that I am on and will continue to stay on as everything but my ring finger is still doing great. As for the amount of supplements, I know everyone is going to think I'm whacky, but my alternative med doc sent me to an acupuncturist who is also a kinesiologist (muscle testing). (If you don't know much about this write me back and I'll explain it.) She at first had me on 4 serrapeptase 2x, 3 nattokinase 2x, and 1 COQ10 100mg 1x a day. Once I saw about NAC on the Dupuytren's site she tested me for that and I take 2 2x each day. Once I started experiencing relief, probably a few weeks to a month she reduced the dosage. I now take the recommended dosage on the bottles, but sometimes after I've done something strenuous and start to feel any pain I up it for a while. I thought this was really odd that she had me on all of these things and then this drug came out for Dupuytren's called Neprinol, that has much of these same enzymes. I bought some Neprinol and tried it and it just didn't have enough of all the enymes in its propietary blend, for me that is. (although it may depend on how bad off you are.) Your hands look similar to mine at the beginning,but not nearly as bad as my ring finger now so perhaps this therapy might help. You can google serrapeptase and nattokinase to see what they do.

        When I massage the nodules on my feet and hands I sometimes use vit E or just sometimes when I'm in the shower with hot water and shower gel. If you haven't yet, go to Dr. Eaton's website www.handcenter.org and they show you a stretching exercise. I had been doing the OPPOSITE and probably making it worse! I do this exercise a lot to make my ring finger feel better and it helps
        I did the massaging alot at first but now I just don't feel the need in my feet or other hand.

        As for my lifestyle changes, I did quit playing competitive tennis, but if my ring finger is straightened I will go back to tennis for fun. But I have a 10 month old grandbaby so he keeps me on my feet and using my hands bigtime. That is why I am so thankful for these therapies and NA. I can't imagine having to go through open hand surgery and the amount of recovery time it would take before I could be taking care of him again!

        Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions!

        I'll let you know how my appointment goes with Dr. Goldner at Duke.

        ceegee

          01/17/2008 12:40
          PJNixon 
          01/17/2008 12:40
          PJNixon 
          Serrapeptase ...

          Greetings from Cambridge, England where I have just joined this website.

          It may be helpful to relate that 4yrs ago my bilateral DC (with large Garrod's knucklepads) was declared long-established and very aggressive by two very experienced UK hand surgeons, both of whom advised against early surgery cos of strong possibility of repeat attacks and more surgery ... Wait for the collagenase medication trials to finish, said one. Just put off radical surgery as long as possible, said the other. In Paris, the well-known mapper Raoul Tubiana suggested surgery plus tissue grafts to try and slow down repeat attacks. I had much to think about.

          By chance and still thinking some 2yrs later, and nursing a nuisancy toe-joint pain, I resorted to Serrapeptase as an anti-inflammatory which is gentle on the stomach lining. Good with the pain as it was, I also perceived unexpected processes at work in the palms of both hands--something was happening! My hands and fingers were loosening up a little. So I've been taking 40mg p.d of Serrapeptase ever since; and the hands get better, fingers slowly straightening, palmar bumps reducing from an extensive full-palm spread, shrinking down to the usual folds where presumably it all started. The dense knuckle pads on RH have reduced more than on LH.

          Thinks: With palpable improvement, should I carry on with self-medication and hope/wait for the reduced cords to perhaps snap so that the Serrapeptase will dissolve fragments of dead tissue--apparently that's all it removes enzymatically? Have discussed my use of Serrapeptase with only a few regular UK medics, and always mentioning its German and Japanese state-medicine testing for arterial plaque reduction and the like. One UK senior hospital anaesthetist/pain specialist is supportive of my pleasant discovery--no reservations at all, and I asked him frankly. A couple of general practice doctors (who can't know everything) stare impassively with non-committal tombstone faces through my (non-zealous!) explanations--by their total silence, lack of acknowledgement, they make me feel like a crank of some sort as they decline to engage.

          Question? Are there any known adverse side-effects to longterm use of Serrapeptase in German and Japanese state medicine? To say the least, I am pleased to see my hands improving.

          Good wishes to all -

          Paul

            01/17/2008 13:40
            wach 

            Administrator

            01/17/2008 13:40
            wach 

            Administrator

            Re Serrapeptase

            Paul, just curious, how much serrapeptase are you taking? Serrapeptase has been in use for decades and some products don't require prescription in Germany.

            Side effects don't seem to be too frequent but those described sound inconvenient, like nausea, diarrhoe, oversensitivity, itchiness, disturbance of liver function, hepatitis, massive skin reactions (Stevens-Johnson-Syndrom, Lyell-Syndrom), lung reactions (Löffler-Syndrom, Pneumonitis), and allergic shock.

            Wolfgang

            Edited at 17.01.08 15:44

              01/17/2008 14:42
              wach 

              Administrator

              01/17/2008 14:42
              wach 

              Administrator

              Re Serrapeptase (2)

              Paul, in them mean time I searched several medical databases. The vast majority of publications about serrapeptase is from the Far East, mainly Japan.

              My personal concern with taking serrapeptase would be: if orally taken serrapeptase efficiently dissolves Dupuytren cords (= mainly collagene) what stops it dissolving the collagene in my joints?

              Regarding occasional severe side effects see e.g. Sasaki S. et al. "Serrapeptase-induced lung injury manifesting as acute eosiniphilic pneumonia" Nihon Kokyuki Gakkai Zasshi. 2000 Jul;38(7):540-4. ---
              Abstract: "An 84-year-old man was referred to our hospital because of fever, cough, and hemoptysis. The patient had acute respiratory failure (PaO2 < 40 mmHg) on admission, with diffuse interstitial infiltration and bilateral pleural effusion. ... A diagnosis of acute eosinophilic pneumonia was established, and the patient made a rapid recovery after corticosteroids were administered. When the DLST (drug lymphocyte stimulation test) was performed after the corticosteroid therapy was stopped, it was positive for serrapeptase, which had been prescribed for chronic cystitis for 3 months before the onset of the pneumonia. ..."

              Edited at 18.01.08 09:24

                01/17/2008 14:42
                Issleib 
                01/17/2008 14:42
                Issleib 
                Re: Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

                Serrapeptase doesn't come up in my US medical searches, Here a drug usually has both a generic and a trade name. Does this one have another name?

                  01/17/2008 17:09
                  PJNixon 
                  01/17/2008 17:09
                  PJNixon 
                  Re: Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

                  Serratiopeptidase is the laboratory name.

                  I take 40mg each day, buying trade products such as Serrazyme or Serrapeptase (larger and smaller tablets/capsules are offered for sale, and 20-40mg daily seems to suit me). Apparently the enzyme action is derived from/replicated from silkworm life-cycle juices which enable dissolving of the cocoon's dead tissue as the creature metamorphoses, liberates itself and continues the species ... It is noted that the enzyme does not dissolve living tissue, and has been used instead of surgery to break down cysts and bursitis debris swellings, and for women non-malignant breast lumps which cause worries, and incipient fibrose uterine tissue. And general post-surgery/post accident thick scar tissue, etc. Dr Ray Sahelian MD in his U.S. web pages suggests 20mg each day until we have more data on longterm usage of serratiopeptidase.

                  Has anyone else experienced DC relief/remission using this product? I happened on it by chance from a massage therapist and lymph-drainage practitioner working in state medicine in Lowestoft, in eastern England. Her MD colleagues apparently suggest it in place of well-known non-steroidal anti-inflammatories which so often give patients an upset stomach. This anti-inflammatory is fine for most people, I hear, with no interference with other medications ... Hope this info helps. I read somewhere that a well-known German cardiologist was using this enzyme long ago.

                  Paul

                    01/17/2008 20:11
                    Issleib 
                    01/17/2008 20:11
                    Issleib 
                    Re: Alternative therapy...Surgeon at Duke doing NA

                    Well I found a couple journal article citations, but nothing else. I'll try a different search approach.

                    Thanks for the chemical name.

                    Colleen

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