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DP or Trauma
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12/17/2005 23:13
woodskier3

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12/17/2005 23:13
woodskier3

not registered

DP or Trauma

I have symptoms the same a DP, but I am certain that my condition was triggered by overusing my hand. I have a history of rockclimbing, skiing, motorcross, guitar and work in a production setting.

How many people out there are like me?

My feelings are that not much research has been put into figuring out how we end up with this infliction.

12/17/2005 23:03
Stage One

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12/17/2005 23:03
Stage One

not registered

Both

Hi; lacking details. this is conjecture; most of us had
a precipitating event (trauma.) Thereupon we noticed
nodules and eventually chords, then contractures.
In my case I believe that I have a genetic predisposition
that involves an over reaction to healing/repair conditions
involving palmar tissue. This condition is referred to as
Dupuytren's Contractures. Associated conditions are Ledderhose (foot/sole,) and Peyronies (male genitalia.)
Bottom line: the trauma "surfaced" a condition already
existent in your body. Absent the predisposition, trauma
would have resolved without nodules, chords, contractures.
NA is the appropriate intervention. Hand surgery is indicated for advanced conditions. The injury or work
conditions did not "cause" the injury. Read up on Radiotherapy, Cryotherapy, etc., then contact an NA Doctor
and resolve the contracture for 2-4 years with a benign
intervention that takes 30 minutes and cost $200-$1,000
depending on the where and when details. Read up on this,
and ask more questions. Then, get NA. I did. Good luck!

12/18/2005 23:41
Wolfgang Wach

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12/18/2005 23:41
Wolfgang Wach

not registered

other causes?

Not every nodule in the palm is due to Dupuytren's disease. Specifically with rock climbing heavy use of the hand might e.g. cause ganglion cysts. Generally it might make sense to exclude other causes before deciding for a specific Dupuytren therapy.

Wolfgang

12/18/2005 23:14
Stage One

not registered

12/18/2005 23:14
Stage One

not registered

Differential Diagnosis; es tut mir Lied.

Good point Wolfie; I also had a ganglionic cyst totally
unrelated to my DD/DC. Fortunately, I have a competent
Internist who diagnosed the Duputrens. He referred me
to a Plastic Surgeon; equally fortunate, my internet investigations led me to L'hopital Lariboisiere and the
30 years success with NA for DD/DC. Wolfgang is advocating
radiotherapy. I am sure he is sincere; meanwhile, the world's best authority remains: Dr. Jean Luc Lemusiaux in
Paris, France. My surgery was successfully completed by
Dr. Badois in 2003. Dr. Badois is a long time staff member
and protege of Dr. Lermusiaux. I use X-Rays daily in
my occupation. Personally, I would "wait and see" before I
had my nodules/chords irradiated (colateral damage.)

12/19/2005 23:19
Wolfgang Wach

not registered

12/19/2005 23:19
Wolfgang Wach

not registered

therapies

Hi Stage One, I am sorry if I created the impression that I am advocating radiation therapy. I participate in this forum because Dupuytren e.V. wants to inform on available therapies. I post things when I believe I can add value, specifically with regard to NA I am certainly less knowledgeable than most people on this forum, that's why I write more often in connection with other therapies.

The advantage of radiation therapy is that it can stop Dupuytren before it grows big (why wait?). When it is big, NA steps in. Radiation therapy is for stages N and N/I, NA (in my opinion) for stages I - II, maybe III. No competition between those therapies.

With regard to collateral damage of radiation therapy it is certainly true that not only the Dupuytren cells are being damaged. But the damage to the other cells seems to be minor. I personally had 3 radiation therapies (the first one 20 years ago) without any severe side effects (by the way, I myself had worked in radiation physics for quite a while. No I am in the software business, less dangerous). Still, shielding of the not affected parts of the hand makes a lot of sense.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

12/20/2005 23:07
Karl

not registered

12/20/2005 23:07
Karl

not registered

Rock Climbing

Rock climbing can trigger Dupuytren:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16118302&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

@ Stage One:
"Wait and see" with radiotherapy? Wait for what and then see what? Everyone knows how Dupuytrens progresses, if you have the nodules, the affected fingers WILL bent sooner or later (if you don't die early enough).
Radiotherapy can, if you are lucky, HALT the progression of Dups, NOTHING more. Its far away from being a cure.
I wouldnt want to wait until my fingers are bent because the longer you wait, the less effective is RT (see studies).
Collateral Damage?
Please look at Dupuytren-post-op pictures from people with multiple cords removed from their hands, THATS what I call "Collateral Damage"!

Just my 2 cents.

12/21/2005 23:08
Stage One

not registered

12/21/2005 23:08
Stage One

not registered

Rock Climbing therapy

Good luck Karl. I will have Chord NA once or twice in my lifetime. Meanwhile you can read up on osteo-radio-
necrosis and ponder the dose related effect. Every approach
requires pioneers. I admire your willingness to venture
into new modalities. Radiotherapy does not cause cancer.
That said, why does it seem to work? Perhaps because the
radiation damages the tissue and stops proliferations of
fibroblasts. How does the beam discern between normal and abnormal tissue? That is the collateral concern; short term
gain versus long term options. Open surgery remains if NA
fails. My concern is about lost opportunities (if any)subsequent to radiotherapy. My initial remark mentioned a
Urologist who found brachytherapy (radiation seeds)minimized future options in prostate surgery. My "wait and
see" is not about intervention, merely about radiotherapy.
Have NA at 30 degrees and the radio results may be more convincing five years later. Have your nodules irradiated now and we will have something to evaluate. You can have satisfaction that you were a pioneer and "right."
Meanwhile, I prefer to "wait and see." If I need open surgery, I will still have viable tissue for the CHS to
work with. Hopefully, you and Wolfgang will just have
dry hands and never need further intervention. I think it
is too soon to tell. I do wish you well. Viel Gluck!

12/21/2005 23:28
Wolfgang Wach

not registered

12/21/2005 23:28
Wolfgang Wach

not registered

comments

Hi Stage One,

As we all agree it is up to everyone himself to decide what route to go. Without advocating any specific therapy, just three comments on your recents post:

1. you indicate the danger of osteoradionecrosis as result of radiation therapy. According to e.g. eMedicine (http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic579.htm) "ORN (osteoradionecrosis) is rare in patients who receive less than 60 gray (Gy) radiation therapy. Reports exist of ORN in patients receiving less than 60 Gy and more than 50 Gy, but these cases are extremely rare." - Radiation therapy for Dupuytren typically uses 30 Gray, additionally fractioned into 10 therapies with 3 Gy each and a six weeks recovery period after the first 5 sessions.

2. radiation therapy does not affect later NA or surgery, irrespective of what might be the case in prostate surgery.

3. radiation therapy for Dupuytren is not new, there is about 30 years of experience in Germany.

I already agreed in an earlier post that damage of surrounding tissue is inevitable. That's why only the Dupuytren affected part of the hand (with some fringe) is radiated. The question is whether the damage is too heavy to allow this kind of therapy. Published long-term results don't indicate this (e.g. http://www.springerlink.com/(pbfu3m55xe4naqut5rodta45)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,4,8;journal,50,78;linkingpublicationresults,1:103711,1 - scroll down for the English text). Personally I believe that surgery does more damage.

Wolfgang

12/22/2005 23:45
Stage One

not registered

12/22/2005 23:45
Stage One

not registered

Immer Forvarts

ORN involves bone. Soft tissue is a separate concern.
Statistics about ORN are interesting when one focuses on
bone. I raised the point because the topic includes
considerations about co-morbid factors; i.e. soft tissues.
Radiotherapy of the hand does not involve ORN. Reading about ORN exposes a reader to sequelae and co-morbid
consequences of the radiation therapy. Life threatening illnesses warrant intervention; side effects are warranted
when life is saved. Dupuytrens is not cancer. Radiotherapy
may be an improvement upon NA. My point is. proceed by all
means. I am eager to learn about the results long term.
For the present, a very benign alternative exists, and,
it does not preclude other modalities. When RT achieves the longitudinal success and lack of downside, I might
consider it myself. Personally, I imagine that Ledderhose
suffers might have more interest than the DD/DC population.
Bottom line (cost benefit analysis:' where and how much does it cost. Nodules, chords, contractures? Just what
is RT "treating" and why (eg. nodules.) And, finally, just
what are the future side effects of irradiating one's hands
over how many visits over how many years. If you can,
please provide the tables of X patients recceiving Y treatments over Z years, etc. Meanwhile, it is an interesting topic about a treatment that has limited application in the affected population (cost/benefit.)
The prostate analogy:inadequate healthy tissue remained
(after Brachytherapy) to perform subsequent,minimally
invasive therapy. (Everything got fried in the process.)
Are you suggesting that RT "only" targets nodules? Chords?
Clearly, we are on separate paths. I agree to disagree.
I am pleased for you that you have a personal success and
only "dry skin" to show for it. For 200 USD I had my
contracture released in a 20 minute procedure 2 years ago
and anticipate repeating the procedure again in 2-4 years
if indicated. Open hand surgery will remain a viable option if I ever need it: no "fried tissues" only severed
connective aponeurosis tissue. I have done about 10,000
"blind" injections, so I have no trepidations in that regard.

12/23/2005 23:20
Stage One

not registered

12/23/2005 23:20
Stage One

not registered

Niemal Zuruck

http://www.chemcases.com/2003version/nuclear/nc-14.htm

The topic is erudite for myself and others; I offer this
link as one of many introductions to the world of Rads, Rems, Grays, and Sieverts. I suggest that everyone educate themselves about radiation therapy (a very valid therapy)
and its side effects. Early stage DD/DC is a nuiscance
at best. I believe that Wolfgang is implying that earlier
intervention (i.e., not waiting for 30 degree contractures)
precludes advancement/progression of DD/DC. Perhaps,that is
true. Time wil tell. My concern is, at what cost, financially, and physically. Does irradiated (30 Grays)
tissue present a less than optimal surgical site for advanced cases? I do not know. I do no that NA will correct
Stage One, Two and many Three cases. Fours are problematic. RT may work very well with minimal sequellae.
Na is gaining acceptance after 30 years of success; perhaps RT is next. Call me cautious; I prefer to "wait and
see" about ionizing energy solutions for relatively benign
conditions. Perhaps I am influneced by the actinic keratosis sites where my youthful sunburn occurred. That
was somatic damage; Just what is the mechanism for RT
and why bother with nodules? I have no vested ineterest.
Does Wolfgang sound much like Sean did? Please keep
us posted. We are all interested in advancements that work
long term. "Cures" will most likely be gene therapy and off
in the future. Either way, have your hands sliced or fried;
you need not suffer the debilitaing effects of DD/DC.
Let us know if you figure out exactly how many Rads. Rems,
Grays, Sieverts, Joules, etc, are involved in individual
cases and what the long term consequences are at a somatic
and molecular level. We are all very interested.

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osteoradionecrosis   pbfu3m55xe4naqut5rodta45   Dupuytren   Wolfgang   therapy   radiation   investigations   predisposition   linkingpublicationresults   brachytherapy   referrer=parent&backto=issue   Radiotherapy   nodules   contractures   intervention   cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list   surgery   hl=8&itool=pubmed   Dupuytren-post-op   uids=16118302&query