| Lost password
472 users onlineYou are not loggend in.  Login
Hand surgeons against RT?
 1
 1
04/05/2016 09:35
mellow 
04/05/2016 09:35
mellow 
Hand surgeons against RT?

Hello all,

I have been reading up on RT and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts/views. I am a 31 year old male (living in Ireland) with DD in my right (dominant) hand (nodules and cords but no contracture yet). When I attended a hand surgeon recently he was strongly opposed to RT. He suggested that the RT could produce scarring in the hand that may limit his ability to intervene in the future if the RT did not work to halt the development of the DD. Essentially he was saying "why go for treatment that has no guarantee of success and could complicate things down the line when you can wait and see if your hand develops a contracture and if so come back to me and we will do something about it at that point". I can see his point but I can also see the benefit in RT if it means I don't need to see the hand surgeon again! In reading up on the topic I know others have had similar experiences with hand surgeons - I had a very helpful conversation with a fellow forum member and I also read comments from Dr Eaton in the US who appears to hold a similar view. In contrast, I know in one of Prof Seegenschmeidt's presentations he mentions that he has experience with German surgeons being able to surgically intervene in cases where a hand as undergone RT previously.

So all in all, although I have done a huge amount of my own research and I am convinced of the benefits of RT, it is a difficult one to go directly against the recommendation of a hand specialist! I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on the matter and if you had a similar debate with yourself.

04/05/2016 10:45
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

04/05/2016 10:45
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

Hi mellow

Welcome to the forum. The BSSH in the UK has also taken the position against RT. However there are a number of individual surgeons who are more open minded. The use of RT as a therapy for a range of conditions is well established, and you hardly hear surgeons worrying about that; although it is one of the standard questions in the NHS prior to surgery.

There are at least two things that get muddled, the long term effect on the hand, and the effectiveness of RT.

The long term effect at the worse seems to be superficial skin dryness and it should be remembered this is not penetrating radiation, just deep enough to reach the affected fascia and disease. Did your hand surgeon mention the least complicating options at his disposal if you do get a contracture, which would be NA/PNF or Xiapex? They are less likely to be affected by prior treatment using RT, since they are hardly invasive.

The effectiveness of RT is now well documented, and yes there are failures. I think the tricky area really is, if you do nothing now, what are the chances are it will quiesce or go dormant anyway, whereas if you had RT now, who is to say if it was really effective or the DD just entered the dormant phase it would have done anyway. But this is where the control studies show the effectiveness; and an experienced doctor will ensure the timing of RT is right to maximise the chance of success. Ask your hand surgeon to cite the evidence or facts he is basing his position on, and show him the links to the RT control studies. Or just find a surgeon more up to date.

Kind regards
SB

04/11/2016 06:12
Peacefulbird 
04/11/2016 06:12
Peacefulbird 
Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

mellow:
So all in all, although I have done a huge amount of my own research and I am convinced of the benefits of RT, it is a difficult one to go directly against the recommendation of a hand specialist! I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on the matter and if you had a similar debate with yourself.

Welcome to the forum, Mellow, and thanks for this topic!

For about a month (ever since being diagnosed with DD), I've been obsessed with reading about it online, everything from home remedies (diet, acupuncture, massage, magnesium oil) to articles in medical journals! Not that I'm an expert by any means, but the way I interpret the findings has finally pointed me to RT, without lingering doubts. This is my understanding of the research to date (and I welcome the experts to comment):

After initial nodules appear...

1. If you do nothing, basically just ignoring the nodules, there is approximately 60% chance that the disease will not progress further in the next 10 years or so.

2. If you receive radiation therapy (RT) while it is in the N (nodules only) stage, there is approximately 93% chance that the disease will not progress further in the next 10 years.

3. If you are in the N stage, but also have linked characteristics such as diabetes, frozen shoulder, or hand trauma, the percentages above may not be so favorable.

For me, the research makes RT a no brainer. The problem (for a time) was where and by whom and how to afford it. Well, actually, how to afford it is a no brainer too. It's my hands. My hands are my best friends, worth any cost, worth selling my home, my car, whatever, to improve the chances of full usage. But where and by whom plagued me for a time.

Out of all the phone calls and emails has come my decision to have RT done by Prof. Seegenschmiedt in Hamburg, Germany a month from now. The two primary reasons for this decision are:

1. Cost. My insurance will not cover RT. I could appeal, and appeal again, but that would take time, during which my DD could get worse beyond where RT is effective. My cost (without help from insurance) at a regional treatment facility is $25,000 for the full, 10-day treatment for one hand. The cost at the Strahlenzentrum in Hamburg is $1,800. I can get the treatment, 2 round-trip flights, lodging and meals in Germany for less than half the out of pocket cost locally.

2. Experience. The local Drs. doing treatments have 2 years experience with radiation for DD, helping only "a few" patients each year. Prof. Seegenschmiedt in Hamburg has been treating DD with RT since 1980, apparently treating about 200 patients per year. I believe one of the keys to success is correctly identifying/finding all of the areas in the hand where the disease is active and treating all of them. More experience should equal more accuracy.

One last comment. The orthopedic surgeon, the one who diagnosed my DD and treated the symptoms with a steroid shot, did mention NA but not RT. He told me to wait until if progressed to intermediate conteraction, and then return. I wish surgeons and radiologists would get together on this one; neither seems to know much about what the other does. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a "treatment team" available to us?

Wishing you all the best,
Peacefulbird
Washington state, USA
right hand DD, onset Oct. 2015

04/11/2016 07:48
Stefan_K. 
04/11/2016 07:48
Stefan_K. 

Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

Peacefulbird, that's an excellent, easy to understand summary which can help many.

As I have written in other posts here, the hand specialist who performed my NA/PNF very successfully and efficiently didn't inform me about RT or the potential benefits of splinting. I found out about it here, fortunately. I went to great lengths to get him interested in RT, forwarding links and information, and offering to examine my hand before and after the RT in Hamburg. He didn't take up the offer, but said he'd try to talk to colleagues doing radiation in the hospital. We exchanged by email (already a big plus with a doctor here), but I haven't been back or heard back.

It is troubling how little interest many if not most doctors show in treatment options others than their specialty (and sometimes how incompetent or little knowledgeable they are even in their own specialty). As I find it hard to accept, I have gotten a referral from my general practitioner to an oncologist friend of his later this month. I have no idea about the knowledge and interest he has regarding Dupuytren's but I am not giving up hope that somehow, one day, it will be possible to make radiotherapy available and have it covered for Dupuytren's (and Ledderhose) in France, and keep trying to facilitate it.

Stef

[54 year-old male, DD diagnosis 2006, RH contracture and NA/PNF 2014, RT 2015, wearing night splint glove]

04/11/2016 08:23
mellow 
04/11/2016 08:23
mellow 
Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

spanishbuddha:

The long term effect at the worse seems to be superficial skin dryness and it should be remembered this is not penetrating radiation, just deep enough to reach the affected fascia and disease. Did your hand surgeon mention the least complicating options at his disposal if you do get a contracture, which would be NA/PNF or Xiapex? They are less likely to be affected by prior treatment using RT, since they are hardly invasive.


Thanks for your reply SB. The surgeon didn't really expand on his views other than saying it can cause scarring. My thoughts were similar to yours though that surely RT is not penetrating enough to rule out further techniques in the future.

04/11/2016 08:37
mellow 
04/11/2016 08:37
mellow 
Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

Thanks for sharing your experience Peacefulbird. I was/am similarly convinced of the benefits of RT - the view of the surgeon just made me debate with myself again. I mean in general who goes against the recommendation of a specialist. I suppose that's what second opinions are for!

04/11/2016 14:18
meunier 
04/11/2016 14:18
meunier 
Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

spanishbuddha:


The effectiveness of RT is now well documented, and yes there are failures.



I have to say for me the research - be it by Prof S and his team - or anyone else - on RT for DD - limited as it is over the time frame - would be hugely strengthened if they did a study on the whys and wherefores of their so-called failures. That would, I think, be most instructive as towards the practice's general medical acceptance ... and surely it would teach much overall. I think the documentation that exists - such as it survives - is weakened by this particular lack of address.

Edited 04/11/16 17:20

04/11/2016 16:35
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

04/11/2016 16:35
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

meunier:
spanishbuddha:


The effectiveness of RT is now well documented, and yes there are failures.



I have to say for me the research - be it by Prof S and his team - or anyone else - on RT for DD - limited as it is over the time frame - would be hugely strengthened if they did a study on the whys and wherefores of their so-called failures. That would, I think, be most instructive as towards the practice's general medical acceptance ... and surely it would teach much overall. I think the documentation that exists - such as it survives - is weakened by this particular lack of address.
Yes I agree it would be helpful to know why there are failures. I guess you can raise this with ProfS yourself. I think I have already mentioned ProfS tries to minimise the risk of failure for his cases, often by not treating at inappropriate times, or in the absence of supporting indicators.

But, I think there are risks of failure in many medical procedures including surgery, other radiation therapy treatments, chemotherapy, drug treatments, etc, what's so different? Especially if we were to compare the 'failure' rate for surgery as a treatment of DD.

04/11/2016 17:04
wach 

Administrator

04/11/2016 17:04
wach 

Administrator

Re: Hand surgeons against RT?

The root cause of Dupuytren's not being understood and radiotherapy being a statistical process (trying to catch all cells by irradiation) it might be difficult to pinpoint why RT worked in same cases and in similar ones not.

Wolfgang

Edited 04/11/16 20:04

 1
 1
radiation   surgeons   against   Seegenschmeidt   effectiveness   surgeon   Seegenschmiedt   treatment   radiotherapy   approximately   Strahlenzentrum   documentation   characteristics   Peacefulbird   inappropriate   spanishbuddha   experience   strengthened   contracture   recommendation