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Recurrence 11 months after RT
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02/03/2011 17:47
Maddie 
02/03/2011 17:47
Maddie 
Recurrence 11 months after RT

I had RT about a year ago at Scripps. I had DD in several sites on both hands, and it seemed to be progressing very rapidly. Based primarily on information on this website, I decided RT was the way to go. I was struggling with the decision of whether to go to Germany (where they've had the most experience with this) or get treated in the US. But I finally decided to try Scripps, partly because, for personal reasons, traveling all the way to Europe would have been difficult for me at that time.

I had a great experience at Scripps, and my treatment was initially very successful. The progression, which had been so rapid that my hands very visibly changing every few days, stopped completely about midway through the treatment. And in the months afterwards, the nodules shrunk considerably.

Unfortunately, last week (about 11 months after the completion of my RT), I noticed a new nodule. It is right next to the worst nodule I had treated last year. So I am suspecting that perhaps the margins were not great enough. This is something several posters on this forum had warned about -- they recommended seeing Dr. Seegenschmiedt in Hamburg in part because they said he was skilled at detecting areas of disease beyond what others could find. This is why I had been strongly considering traveling to Germany. I'm not sure if this is what happened, but it seems logical to me given the placement of the new nodule.

So now I am in the same boat again of deciding what to do -- do I switch doctors and go to Germany now, or go back to Scripps? I am in email correspondance now with Dr. Seegenschmiedt and exploring the possibility of seeing him. He set that he would need to get detailed information about the treatment I had to determine the best course of action. His first take on it was that I might have been under-treated -- not only due to the margins issue, but also because the Scripps protocol is different. However, since I have been treated once (though only with 20 gy total), it makes the next step more complicated.

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. (I'll probably get some "I told you so's!)

And I should add that, even though I may have made the wrong decision about where to go for treatment, I have never once regretted my decision to get RT. There is no doubt in my mind that my hands would be significantly contracted by now without it. As it is, I have almost no functional impairment. RT is clearly so effective that to me it borders on malpractice that hand surgeons who diagnosis this condition aren't routinely telling patients about RT as a means of preventing the disease from progressing.

02/03/2011 18:53
Larry 
02/03/2011 18:53
Larry 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

Recurrence after Radiotherapy

It's an important aspect you report and it explains why it is important to carefully plan the first step !

In some publications the rationale for radiotherapy is questioned and it seems that Dupuytren and Ledderhose Diseases can be compared with keloids or hypertrophic scars, where radiotherapy acts best, when applied with a higher single dose like 3, 4 or even 5 Gy ! Usually these disorders are NOT irradiated with single doses of 2 Gy. So I believe SINGLE RT DOSE plays a major role in the effectiveness of radiation therapy and possibly total dose is less important ...

Unfortunately there is only one (German) publication available with 10 x 2Gy from Köhler et al. (1984): After a relatively short observation time of 1 - 3 years they observed a progression rate of 18% !

THis is much higher than the results of Keilholz et al. (1996/ 1997), Seegenschmiedt et al (2000) and Adamietz et al (2001), who all used 3 Gy single dose .... Seegenschmiedt has summarized the clinical trials in a book http://www.scribd.com/doc/30743418/Radio...gnant-Disorders on page 177.

So my conclusion is to use 3Gy or higher single doses for primary treatment and if there is a relapse with 10 x 2Gy I would go for a changed single dose: perhaps 5 x 3Gy is sufficient !?

You should ask the PROF ! I was treated from him and he seems to be a very experienced physician ...

Edited 02/03/11 20:55

02/03/2011 18:56
callie 
02/03/2011 18:56
callie 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

That is a pretty strong statement. You said, "RT is clearly so effective that to me it borders on malpractice that hand surgeons who diagnosis this condition aren't routinely telling patients about RT as a means of preventing the disease from progressing."

Usually when a hand surgeon is consulted, Dupuytren's contraction is well established. Are you suggesting that any degree of contraction, surgeons should be "routinely telling patients about RT as a means of preventing the disease from progressing." Is RT that effective? Will it stop a 40 degree contraction from progressing to 70 degrees?

02/03/2011 20:27
Maddie 
02/03/2011 20:27
Maddie 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

You make an important distinction. As I understand it (and as has been stated repeatedly on this site), RT is not effective in reversing contractures. It is effective at stopping the progression of the disease by stopping the growth of active nodules, and even shrinking them.

I had no contracture at all when I was diagnosed -- just four nodules and a knuckle pad. The four nodules had all developed fairly rapidly. Therefore, I was a perfect candidate to have the disease stopped in its tracks by RT. Nevertheless, my doctor-- a highly-respected hand surgeon -- told me there was "no conservative treatment," and that I should come back in a year to see if my hands had deteriorated to the point where I needed surgery.

I went home and did research on the web, and quickly learned about the research that has been done on RT and the many patients who have claimed to have successful experiences with it. If I can find this out in a few days, I don't know how it's possible that a doctor who specializes in hands would not have known about it. His not telling me about it means that either he is shockingly unversed in developments in his own field, or deliberately withholding the information from me -- a patient who should have the option of making informed decisions about a matter this important to my health and future.

Even if RT was not an option he recommended, he still should have told me about it, but said that he didn't recommend it.

I have looked at the literature on DD on some other hand surgeons' websites and have seen similar statements about there being no treatment to stop the progression. The way that these surgeons willfully ignore the research that has been done on RT, and the many highly reputable radiologists who are using this technique, is so extreme to me as to suggest that these surgeons want patients to become disabled so that they can conduct more surgeries. Otherwise, why aren't the surgeons at least saying things like -- some patients have undergone RT for this condition and believe it stopped the progression, but the research is not definitive, and there are risks involved, so it is controversial... etc. These would be true representations. Pretending this treatment doesn't exist is not.

And I am a little angry about what happened with this surgeon because I do feel that I was harmed by his failure to tell me about RT. If he had told me, it might have saved me some time, allowing me to get the RT sooner. As it was, the disease was progressing so fast that I was left with some lack of function after the RT (its not serious enough to need surgery for, but its something that never should have happened if hand surgeons were handling this disease in a responsible way.) And it scares me to think about the state my hands would be in right now if I did not have the Internet to go to as a resource. So yes, I do think this borders on malpractice (though not anything you could win a court case on.)

If a patient already has a contracture that they want corrected, as it sounds like you did, that is of course a different situation.

Edited 02/04/11 02:29

02/03/2011 20:48
lori 
02/03/2011 20:48
lori 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

Maddie,

"RT is clearly so effective that to me it borders on malpractice that hand surgeons who diagnosis this condition aren't routinely telling patients about RT as a means of preventing the disease from progressing."

I was referred to a hand surgeon for diagnosis. I had a nodule and a cord and very little to no contraction. All I had was a little puckering and just the beginning of the finger to contract. From my experience and meeting others who have DD, all were told by hand surgeons to wait until contraction had occurred and then have surgery. Given the aggressiveness of my DD, if I had taken his advice I can't imagine what my hand would look like or how difficult my life would be. While I don't expect a hand surgeon to recommend RT in all cases, I DO expect them as the lead diagnostician to present or alert the patient that there are alternative treatments to surgery and that different treatments are effective at different stages of the disease. I compare this to just diagnosed breast cancer at an early stage and going to see the oncologist and being told that the only treatment is a total mastectomy while a lumpectomy could have been just as effective. Either treatment might or might not work. No one knows until time has passed if the treatment worked. There are different stages of cancer which require different levels of treatment. Such is also the case for DD.

I suspect that if a hand surgeon was diagnosed with the beginnings of DD (nodule and possibly the beginning of a cord) and they wanted to continue to practice as a surgeon, they would not wait until they had contraction sufficient to warrant surgery before they began to treat themselves.

Hand surgeons in the US are considered the "expert" in diagnosing and treating DD. I agree with you that they should be informing their patients about ALL of the available treatments, whether they administer them or not.

Lori

02/03/2011 21:27
flojo 
02/03/2011 21:27
flojo 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

Lori and Maddie,

I couldn't agree more. I was told the same thing - "The only thing to do is wait until you hand is severely contracted and then do surgery." Granted, i didn't go an hand specialist as recommended by the general/knee & hip orthopedist, but he, the general ortho, my dermatologist and my GP all said that same thing. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to know (although now they have no excuse because I have showed them results for me), but I, too, would expect a hand specialist to explain ALL options.

My DD was and still is predominately in my palm. Finger joints affected very little, Even so, I KNOW my hand would be a claw by now if I hadn't had RT. The RT margins seemed large enough to me - the whole palm and all metacarpal joints.

Just wondering, does DD always radiate out from a starting point? I'm thinking it could be developing at different points at the same time. My nodules all over the palm would indicate that. Maybe it can still start up new somewhere else even if the RT stops it in the initial places.

02/03/2011 22:26
Maddie 
02/03/2011 22:26
Maddie 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

I definitely don't think nodules always radiate from a central point -- I have them in several locations that are far apart. And it's true that I can't be sure this new nodule is related to undertreatment or inadequate margins for my previously treated nodule.

I just think it is likely, though, because the new nodule is SO close to the other nodule, which was the largest and most aggressive one I had. In fact, that's one of the things that concerns me about treating again, because it would be impossible to treat the new nodule without also irradiating at least part of the earlier nodule - they are well within each other's margins. Hopefully the docs will have a good answer for how to handle this.

02/03/2011 23:13
David26

not registered

02/03/2011 23:13
David26

not registered

Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

Maddie, my experience is similar to yours, start up and rapid progression of DD, I had RT very quickly after diagnosis, same protocol as yours (20Gy over 2 weeks). However, my DD is now continuing to progress and develop even inside the treated area although I can tell the RT was effective with several nodules in the little finger areas of both hands. Again a very aggressive version of the disease is probably different than the typical slow developing version. I have painful nodules as well.

Perhaps the 5 x 3Gy would have been better for me. Hard to say but that is past me now.

I've read that Professor Seegenschmiedt says that RT works for 2 of 3 people and I know my situation is far more aggressive than most. I am contemplating more RT and have the same dilemma you are facing with options.

As far as the hand surgeons and RT, I bet you could count on one hand the number of ASSH surgeons who would recommend RT, I've consulted with several and you could the jaws drop when I mentioned I got it. Heresy. I don't think RT exists in their world. It is a cancer treatment to them. They have no training or education on it as a treatment for DD.

02/04/2011 00:05
flojo 
02/04/2011 00:05
flojo 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

David, You remind us of the point we all want to discount - RT doesn't work for 100% of the people. Or in my case, I think it worked but did not stop the disease 100%. Thanks for the reminder.

If it worked some, it was effective. Stopping that itchy, crawly feeling in the fascia of my palm, the achy feeling and some nodules reducing in size, that was effective. While that crawly thing was going on, it was constantly in the back of my mind, but too often in the front of my mind, that the disease was working to make my hand deformed. I could get it out of my mind after the RT helped.

02/04/2011 00:09
LubaM. 
02/04/2011 00:09
LubaM. 
Re: Recurrence 11 months after RT

I totally agree with everyone above.... I had the same negative input from 4 different hand surgeons I consulted during the years when my DD started to progress. Had I known earlier about the possibility of RT and NA, I wouldn't have wound up with a badly contracted small finger in my right hand.

Fortunately I became informed through this forum...and five years ago had my first NA (followed by a repeat NA on the same finger four years later). Mine is a stubborn contracture (PIP joint, plus boutonierre deformity) and both times the contracture returned.

However, I've had great success with RT on my left hand and left foot. Its been over 14 months, and the RT stopped the progression in the radiated areas.

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