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NA + surgery ?
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07/23/2009 13:55
Luc 
07/23/2009 13:55
Luc 
NA + surgery ?

I am French, 46 years now and have a quite aggressive and recurrent dup on my pinkie finger. It all started 5 years ago with a nodule evolving within two years with a finger bending up to 40 degrees. I had first NA in Hopital Lariboisière in Paris with no real good result (about 10 degrees relax), a second NA was performed 6 months later by Dr Lermusiaux at his private place in Gagny. Remember that Dr Lermusiaux invented NA some 30 years ago. He did a very good job and got my finger back to 0 degree which seemed at that moment quite unbelievable! During the four following months I had the first and very severe recurrence, my finger bent back much more than previous to NA, about 100 degrees. I showed it to Dr Lermusiaux who dismissed any further NA treatment and sent me right away to Dr Roulot, the famous surgeon in Paris (Institut de la main) who performed open surgery (PIP and MTP). Once again, I admit he did a very good job but then (today, some 9 months after) I have a reccurence at 90 degrees. It also triggered the disease in the palm with many nodules growing. I went to Essen to have Radiotherapy on the palm (with PROF. Seegenschmiedt), I hope it will stop the process …
I followed the exchange on the forum in the last months and found some information on these surgeons practising both NA and surgery which is completely different from what’s being done in France where an option is practised in opposition to the other one. Traditionnaly NA is done by rheumatologists and not by surgeons who ignore it. I hear that Dr Schenkel and Eaton are both from this new generation of doctors combining both NA and surgery for the benefit of hard cases like mine. I would add that what I understand so far about Dupuytren, at least for my case, is that getting a bending finger straight is quite easy now but preventing recurrence is the real challenge…
Can we say that these surgeons practising NA are on this way and a bit more in advance for treatment of reccurence?
If so, are there some doctors of this kind in France or elsewhere in Europe or should I make the trip to California ?
Thanks for help.
Luc

07/23/2009 14:10
wach 

Administrator

07/23/2009 14:10
wach 

Administrator

Re: NA + surgery ?

Luc, the opposition to NA is wide-spread, not only in France, but also in the US and elsewhere. For surgeon it is hard to understand why he should do a blind proedure while he can so easily cut open. Surgeons often are not aware that the cutting of the hand is a trauma that might push other Dupuytren mini-nodules outside the operated area into aggressive growth.

Fortunately we do have several surgeons in Germany who also have experience with NA. Examples are

Dr. Meinel in Wuerzburg
Dr. Kuehlein in Munich
Prof. Lukas in Munich

You find their detailed addresses on http://www.dupuytren-online.de/nadelfasz...e_adressen.html. BTW, Prof. Werker in Groningen, Netherlands, might also be an option.

To keep your contracture better under control you might try two things:
a) massage your hand or finger daily, maybe using a cream or oil, whatever you consider convenient. That will keep the finger more flexible.
b) wear a night splint regularly (e.g. the one on http://www.dupuytren-online.info/dupuytr...techniques.html or http://www.dupuytren-online.info/NA_side_effects.html, whatever is appropriate).


Wolfgang

07/23/2009 15:23
Mike S

not registered

07/23/2009 15:23
Mike S

not registered

Re: NA + surgery ?

Luc,

Je peux vous dire que Dr. Denkler qui a son bureau pres de San Francisco en Californie est un medecin excellent. J'ai recu NA avec Dr. Denkler, il y a trois ans - 95 degres PIP. J'utilize encore "splint" dans la nuit. Bien sur, il ya des autres bons medecins des mains qui sont plus proche. Peut-etre en france ou en allemagne.

Bonne chance!

07/24/2009 16:29
Luc 
07/24/2009 16:29
Luc 
Re: NA + surgery ?

Wolfgang,
Vielen dank für ihre hilfe ! These adresses might be very helpfull in finding a "different" surgeon... My message was actually based on a post by Diane s. last month :

http://www.dupuytren-online.info/Forum_E...hers-0_548.html

She mentionned this combination of NA and "mini" surgery which is in fact a way to limitate surgery at its minimum. Surgeons don't know much about Dupuytren in general and the way they activate the disease by "opening" fingers. This is why on my opinion people with Dupuytren should only refer to experts of this disease, whenever it is possible of course... May be NA shouldn't be opposed to surgery but understood as a complement to it...

Merci Mike pour votre remarque "en français dans le texte". I think I am going to send some pictures of my hand to dr Denkler (and german doctors as well) and wait for some comment.

07/26/2009 06:36
Randy_H 
07/26/2009 06:36
Randy_H 

Re: NA + surgery ?

luc,

The problem with Dups is that regardless of the correcting procedure recurrence is always a threat. While NA does not remove tissue that can continue to grow, Open surgery so traumatizes the hand that completely *new* growth can be activated. Once active disease gets started it's really a no win situation because as of now there is no cure.

There continues to be this "Either Or" dichotomy disconnect between NA and OS. I think the main reason for this is that so few CHS offer both. NA is still controversial so two camps have formed. Clearly, I'm a rabid part of there NA camp. Still, that does not force someone with my convictions to be "anti" OS however. That's like saying that being in favor of frequent tune ups and oil changes makes one against rebuilding an engine if it needs it. Look at NA as preventive maintenance that can forestall more drastic, and not always better, measures.

The goal is to keep fingers as straight as possible for as long as possible. For the majority NA is sufficient, thus preventing the need for opening up on hand. When it is not, OS is simply the next step up the ladder of invasiveness. A huge step, but there is not much in between.

The acception is Denkler's "combo" approach which makes sense when previous scar tissues stands in the way.

07/27/2009 09:07
TrevB 
07/27/2009 09:07
TrevB 

Re: NA + surgery ?

Quote:



Once active disease gets started it's really a no win situation because as of now there is no cure.



I remember Dr Goode at Poole saying similar when we were discussing options during my radiotherapy consultation. Radiotherapy hopefully stops or greatly slows down progress and if you wait then you're in the lap of the gods. You could be lucky? I chose not to wait to find out and the result is good so far. I've gone from looking at my hand and thinking how long until I have to investigate an invasive procedure, to looking at my hand and seeing an improving situation, you can't beat that

Cambidgeshire, UK.

07/27/2009 14:14
callie 
07/27/2009 14:14
callie 
Re: NA + surgery ?

TrevB,
How does one determine whether radiation is working? My hand (other than the one I had surgery) has not progressed in 10 years. If I would have chosen radiation 10 years ago, my reaction would be how great the radiation worked in slowing/stopping the progress of Dupuytren's. But, I did not chose radiation and the Dupuytren's has not progressed at all. I know many friends with Dupuytren's who have slight contraction, or nodules, and the Dupuytren's doesn't progress their entire life.

07/27/2009 17:41
Issleib2

not registered

07/27/2009 17:41
Issleib2

not registered

Re: NA + surgery ?

Mine was progressing so rapidly I could watch it. The nodules didn't hurt at rest but putting pressure on them did. It was uncomfortable to drive my stick shift car or chop vegitables. My feet hurt to stand on. My nodules all regressed and softened .Some small ones went away completly. Now I am pain free. It's been nearly 3 years. I've gotten a couple new ones outside the radiation fields. And I have nodules on my kneecaps and they have grown. So for me there is no question that it has been succesful.

07/28/2009 08:52
TrevB 
07/28/2009 08:52
TrevB 

Re: NA + surgery ?

Quote:



TrevB,
How does one determine whether radiation is working? My hand (other than the one I had surgery) has not progressed in 10 years. If I would have chosen radiation 10 years ago, my reaction would be how great the radiation worked in slowing/stopping the progress of Dupuytren's. But, I did not chose radiation and the Dupuytren's has not progressed at all. I know many friends with Dupuytren's who have slight contraction, or nodules, and the Dupuytren's doesn't progress their entire life.



For those of us who were watching progression which has now stopped (and indeed regressed) then it's quite clear to see the effect of radiation because the normal course isn't improvement as far as I know.

I hear what you say about possible lack of progression and I waited 3 years to see which way my disease was going. Wach suggested radiotherapy when I only had one nodule in the palm. I wasn't keen and had radiotherapy when I had a starting visible chord and more nodules on ring and little finger (but still at stage N). Those have all gone down and my hand is no longer feeling tight. I'd put that down to the radiotherapy but if you think that would have happened without then so be it.

Do you be proactive or sit tight It's a personal choice isn't it.



Cambidgeshire, UK.

Edited 07/28/09 13:39

07/28/2009 12:47
Wolfgang

not registered

07/28/2009 12:47
Wolfgang

not registered

Radiotherapy effective ?

To callie:

Radiotherapy is generally only applied to actively growing Dupuytren's nodules. If a nodule is stable and doesn't grow it wouldn't make sense to radiate it, except - maybe - that it is painful. In that case pain reduction would be the objective and could be monitored.

The effectiveness of radiotherapy has been clearly demonstrated, including comparison with an untreated control group (see e.g. http://www.dupuytren-online.info/ASSH_20...files/frame.htm).

In the individual case there is always some uncertainty how the disease would have developed without interference. I myself had my first nodule radiated (in my right palm). 25 years later it's still a tiny nodule not causing any trouble. When I developed my next nodule, now in my left palm, I wondered, as you are doing, whether it would stop growing or vanish without radiotherapy. So I did nothing. I developed a cord, then an extension deficit which then had to be operated about 9 years ago.

Wolfgang

Quote:



TrevB,
How does one determine whether radiation is working? My hand (other than the one I had surgery) has not progressed in 10 years. If I would have chosen radiation 10 years ago, my reaction would be how great the radiation worked in slowing/stopping the progress of Dupuytren's. But, I did not chose radiation and the Dupuytren's has not progressed at all. I know many friends with Dupuytren's who have slight contraction, or nodules, and the Dupuytren's doesn't progress their entire life.


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