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Scientific proof for RT
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10/17/2013 02:47
pia2some 
10/17/2013 02:47
pia2some 
Scientific proof for RT

I'm taking a comment Callie made in another thread and starting a new discussion here.

callie:
The arches were painful about three years. I could walk but there was pain anytime I did something out of the ordinary that would stretch the arches. I had two marble size nodules in each arch. These came on almost exactly when the nodules appeared in my hands. The nodules became elongated in my arch (except for one of the nodules) and are absolutely no problem for me now.

No, I didn't have RT. That is what makes me wonder. If I would have had RT, I would probably be telling everyone how great it was and how good my feet are doing.

I don't really have an opinion on RT at this point. My hand surgeon was talking about this the other day. He said that because there is absolutely no predictability with DC, it really makes scientifically proofing that RT works, almost impossible.

You could have RT on nodules and then have them become dormant and have no progression of the disease for years. Then you say that RT had great results and was successful. But if you did not have RT, those same nodules may have become dormant and there would have been no progression of the disease for years. So how is there any way at all to prove that RT has any real profound effect?

I totally understand that and wonder myself. Thoughts?

~ dawn

10/17/2013 07:11
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

10/17/2013 07:11
spanishbuddha 

Administrator

Re: Scientific proof for RT

pia2some:
I'm taking a comment Callie made in another thread and starting a new discussion here.

callie:
The arches were painful about three years. I could walk but there was pain anytime I did something out of the ordinary that would stretch the arches. I had two marble size nodules in each arch. These came on almost exactly when the nodules appeared in my hands. The nodules became elongated in my arch (except for one of the nodules) and are absolutely no problem for me now.

No, I didn't have RT. That is what makes me wonder. If I would have had RT, I would probably be telling everyone how great it was and how good my feet are doing.

I don't really have an opinion on RT at this point. My hand surgeon was talking about this the other day. He said that because there is absolutely no predictability with DC, it really makes scientifically proofing that RT works, almost impossible.

You could have RT on nodules and then have them become dormant and have no progression of the disease for years. Then you say that RT had great results and was successful. But if you did not have RT, those same nodules may have become dormant and there would have been no progression of the disease for years. So how is there any way at all to prove that RT has any real profound effect?

I totally understand that and wonder myself. Thoughts?

~ dawn
There have been studies done where a control group did not receive RT. See the books referenced under literature on the treatment tab for RT on this web site. Also a quick medline and other search threw up this paper http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...-642-22697-7_44 as another example. So the stats are in favour of proceeding with RT.

Even so I think your point raises a valid question to be answered by the consulting physician. Whether to wait or proceed with treatment. Symptons, a scoring system, and timing are important. Other social, psychological and physiological factors may affect the decision (they did for me).

10/17/2013 13:16
callie 
10/17/2013 13:16
callie 
Re: Scientific proof for RT

Dawn,

I completely agree with your assessment/concern. It is so difficult to use a controlled group for Dupuytren's because of the totally variability of the disease. The same thing happened with my two hands. I developed almost identical nodules (actually two nodules) in each hand (and feet) almost simultaneously. The two hands progressed completely differently. My left hand nodules advanced to a cord and 90 degree contraction (little finger) in 18 months. The right hand never developed a cord nor contraction for over 13 years.

A person (I think "retired teacher") on this forum had RT (from same provider) just a few weeks before I did this year and, from last report, had no success from the procedure.

The problem I have is discerning whether some of the "progress" from some of these procedures is "medical hype" (Xiaflex) to promote their respective procedures and what is valid progress. I suppose there is a little bit of both because of the difficulty of this disease. Dupuytren's is definitely not a linear acting disease.

10/17/2013 13:53
nanshands 
10/17/2013 13:53
nanshands 
Re: Scientific proof for RT

Hi Callie,

I have been reading most of your recent posts and have some questions. I believe Jolene posted similar questions to you in another thread.

It is helpful for others considering RT if you and others would give clear background to your DD. RT success can, and does vary based upon several factors.

In fact it would be wonderful to have a tag or link on this Forum that people who have had RT could profile their disease, along with where they went for treatment. That way others do not have to weave through hundreds of threads and posts!

Why not create our own statistics to substantiate, or not, scientific studies?

So here are a few questions I ask of you, that would be wonderful to have answers to, ones I would love to see included whenever someone posts about their experience with RT.

At what stage was your DD when treated with RT? How extensive and active was it just prior to RT? How long between when you were diagnosed with DD and when you were treated with RT? Were you in any pain or presenting other symptoms before RT? Where were you treated? And, what protocol was used?

Thank you, looking forward to hearing from you.

Nan

Edited 10/17/13 16:55

10/17/2013 14:26
callie 
10/17/2013 14:26
callie 
Re: Scientific proof for RT

1) Stage of Dupuytren's when treated: I had a growing active nodule at base of little finger that was tender to the touch. The nodule was "feeding" a very newly forming cord. The cord was just starting to create a contracture. Another nodule was developing simultaneously in web between forefinger and thumb. No cord had yet developed at time of RT. Both areas received RT.

2) How long between when you were diagnosed with DD and when you were treated with RT? The time when nodule was first noticed until RT was approximately 8 months. I self diagnosed because of prior knowledge of Dupuytren's.

3) Extensive and active? It was one nodule in each location mentioned above.

4) Other pain or discomfort? No, all abnormal feelings were confined to the specific areas of the nodules. No other known health problems in the hands.

5) Where treated? Portland, Dr. Cha at the Oregon Clinic:Radiation Oncology Department (ph. 1-503-215-6029). This location is at the Providence Hospital at 4805 N.E. Glisan St., Portland, OR 97213, just off I-84. www.providence.org/radiation.

6) What protocol used? 3Gy x 5 with 10 1/2 week interval and then 3Gy x 5.

Edited 10/17/13 17:35

10/17/2013 14:30
nanshands 
10/17/2013 14:30
nanshands 
Re: Scientific proof for RT

callie:
1) Stage of Dupuytren's when treated: I had a growing active nodule at base of little finger that was tender to the touch. The nodule was "feeding" a very newly forming cord. The cord was just starting to create a contracture. Another nodule was developing simultaneously in web between forefinger and thumb. No cord had yet developed at time of RT. Both areas received RT.

2) Extensive and active? It was one nodule in each location mentioned above.

3) Other pain or discomfort? No, all abnormal feeling were confined to the specific areas of the nodules. No other known health problems in the hands.

4) Where treated? Portland, Dr. Cha at the Oregon Clinic:Radiation Oncology Department (ph. 1-503-215-6029). This location is at the Providence Hospital at 4805 N.E. Glisan St., Portland, OR 97213, just off I-84. www.providence.org/radiation.

5) What protocol used? 3Gy x 5 with 10 1/2 week interval and then 3Gy x 5.

Thank you Callie! Very helpful!

Nan

10/18/2013 06:05
stephenp 
10/18/2013 06:05
stephenp 
Re: Scientific proof for RT

There is actually some good data showing the effectiveness of RT. While not a randomised control trial, there is a study with an untreated control group that shows that the disease progressed in about 52% of patients compared with about 16% of the group that received 30Gy. This is highly significant at P<0.001. The group sizes are 122 and 303 respectively.

2012 publication Long-Term Outcome of RT for early stage DD: a phase III clinical study. Seegenschmidt et al.

In summary "the use of RT in early stage DD is superior to observation only. .........stage N patients ......clearly benefit from prophylactic irradiation."

While not perfect data ie it is not a RCT, it is strong. Given this data it would be unethical to do a RCT.

I am happy to email this to anyone who wants a read.

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