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Consistent pain and progression after RT
 1 2
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01/22/2015 08:35
Stefan_K. 
01/22/2015 08:35
Stefan_K. 

Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

Phaneo:
I'm 38 years old and just noticed the first nodule last January. So within one year I have gone from one small nodule to a full-blown cord on my ring finger with additional large nodules on my thumb, pinky, index finger, and middle finger.
Thanks.

Phaneo, I have difficulty understanding in what state your hand was at the time of treatment. Could you desribe in more detail the exact areas of which finger(s) you had radiated and what was the size and growth of the treated nodule(s) at the time?

    01/22/2015 16:00
    Molloy 
    01/22/2015 16:00
    Molloy 
    Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

    spanishbuddha:

    I don't think I'm in a position to answer this adequately, "Seegenschmiedt and those around him". The phrase "those around him" is hard to get past, as those around him are others working in the same field which is what you would expect. ProfsS publishes his data as papers or in books, and others do to, with some available on PubMed but not all, for both Dupuytren's and Ledderhose and other conditions as well. He also presents at international conferences, and invites his peers who are doing the same treatment to do their own research, collect data, and publish too. It's up to others to step up and for more of them to publish their results as well. The only negative responses I have seen is from hand surgeons, but that has been so far in private correspondence and was refuted. He does not claim a cure, or prevention, just a slow down or halt in existing proliferation for the majority. That is anecdotally reflected by experience reported here and elsewhere.

    By "those around him," I meant not the whole field of researchers publishing on Dupuytren's or on radiotherapy, but specifically other people closely associated with him (e.g., his co-authors on some of his papers) or his institutional location in Hamburg. That is, it seems almost all the research literature on this comes from that relatively small group of people. I'm just wondering why there apparently is not a larger group of researchers outside Hamburg and Germany more broadly who are interested in investigating this. None of this is meant as any kind of denigration of Seegenschmiedt, of course. I'm quite happy that SOMEONE is investigating it, just curious as to why more are not perking up and doing their own research, given the results S. presents in his published work.
    best,
    Molloy

      01/22/2015 17:01
      spanishbuddha 

      Administrator

      01/22/2015 17:01
      spanishbuddha 

      Administrator

      Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

      Molloy:
      spanishbuddha:

      I don't think I'm in a position to answer this adequately, "Seegenschmiedt and those around him". The phrase "those around him" is hard to get past, as those around him are others working in the same field which is what you would expect. ProfsS publishes his data as papers or in books, and others do to, with some available on PubMed but not all, for both Dupuytren's and Ledderhose and other conditions as well. He also presents at international conferences, and invites his peers who are doing the same treatment to do their own research, collect data, and publish too. It's up to others to step up and for more of them to publish their results as well. The only negative responses I have seen is from hand surgeons, but that has been so far in private correspondence and was refuted. He does not claim a cure, or prevention, just a slow down or halt in existing proliferation for the majority. That is anecdhotally reflected by experience reported here and elsewhere.

      By "those around him," I meant not the whole field of researchers publishing on Dupuytren's or on radiotherapy, but specifically other people closely associated with him (e.g., his co-authors on some of his papers) or his institutional location in Hamburg. That is, it seems almost all the research literature on this comes from that relatively small group of people. I'm just wondering why there apparently is not a larger group of researchers outside Hamburg and Germany more broadly who are interested in investigating this. None of this is meant as any kind of denigration of Seegenschmiedt, of course. I'm quite happy that SOMEONE is investigating it, just curious as to why more are not perking up and doing their own research, given the results S. presents in his published work.
      best,
      Molloy
      Well I too am just a patient, so what follows is just my own personal perspective.

      In Europe at least, I would say the Hamburg centre is a pioneer in the use of RT for conditions other than cancer. So, benign tumours and also inflammatory conditions (such as tennis elbow!). Other European countries have professional medical structures and specialisations, that do not provide for those doctors using radiotherapy as a cancer treatment to explore outside of their cancer speciality. Radiologists in the UK as an example, are technicians, skilled technicians, but not permitted to perform this type of research. Last time I met ProfS in person he asked me why the two doctors in the UK performing RT were not publishing their results. The only defence I could give at the time was that they were at least speaking about it at medical conferences. Also I would say it is not solely ProfS and those around him who are publishing, I have seen papers from others, albeit shown to me in person by ProfS. At least that which is published is subject to peer review, and as one example the UK body called NICE which has to approve all medicines paid for out of public funds, and is generally conservative or parsimonious to say the least, has approved RT after reviewing the literature and hearing in person from the medical profession.


      As an aside, and by comparison or contrast. It is well established and now acknowledged by many, that many medical drugs in recent years have been introduced despite the use of misleading and tainted data on drug performance from the major pharmaceutical companies. Examples abound where they don't publish bad results, publish only partial results, mislead over context of results, structure trials to deliver a desired outcome, and so on. People have died because of this, and yet it continues. So you are wise to do your research, but do this same the next time you buy an OTC medicine or ask your doctor for a prescription.

        01/22/2015 17:32
        wach 

        Administrator

        01/22/2015 17:32
        wach 

        Administrator

        Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

        Just my 5 cents: it's not just Seegenschmiedt publishing, although he is probably the most experienced one specifically with Dupuytren's. Other locations/clinics publishing in Germany on RT of DD/LD are e.g. in Erlangen (Ott, Betz), Bayreuth (Keilholz), Frankfurt (Herkströter), Munich (Hofmann, Eberlein), Münster (Micke). Some of the literature is cited on http://www.dupuytren-online.info/radioth...literature.html . Of course, in such a small field of research the experts know each other and sometimes publish together.

        Why is it not that more people research RT of Dupuytren's? I guess the main issue is funding; there is no big company interested in that kind of research and specifically RT requires long.term follow up. You need to be very decicated to do that and there is not a lot of money to be made with, rather the hospital administration might complain that you are spending money while you ought to make money ...

        Wolfgang

        Molloy:
        By "those around him," I meant not the whole field of researchers publishing on Dupuytren's or on radiotherapy, but specifically other people closely associated with him (e.g., his co-authors on some of his papers) or his institutional location in Hamburg. That is, it seems almost all the research literature on this comes from that relatively small group of people. I'm just wondering why there apparently is not a larger group of researchers outside Hamburg and Germany more broadly who are interested in investigating this. None of this is meant as any kind of denigration of Seegenschmiedt, of course. I'm quite happy that SOMEONE is investigating it, just curious as to why more are not perking up and doing their own research, given the results S. presents in his published work.
        best,
        Molloy

          01/23/2015 21:12
          Molloy 
          01/23/2015 21:12
          Molloy 
          Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

          spanishbuddha:

          Well I too am just a patient, so what follows is just my own personal perspective.

          In Europe at least, I would say the Hamburg centre is a pioneer in the use of RT for conditions other than cancer. So, benign tumours and also inflammatory conditions (such as tennis elbow!). Other European countries have professional medical structures and specialisations, that do not provide for those doctors using radiotherapy as a cancer treatment to explore outside of their cancer speciality. Radiologists in the UK as an example, are technicians, skilled technicians, but not permitted to perform this type of research. Last time I met ProfS in person he asked me why the two doctors in the UK performing RT were not publishing their results. The only defence I could give at the time was that they were at least speaking about it at medical conferences. Also I would say it is not solely ProfS and those around him who are publishing, I have seen papers from others, albeit shown to me in person by ProfS. At least that which is published is subject to peer review, and as one example the UK body called NICE which has to approve all medicines paid for out of public funds, and is generally conservative or parsimonious to say the least, has approved RT after reviewing the literature and hearing in person from the medical profession.


          As an aside, and by comparison or contrast. It is well established and now acknowledged by many, that many medical drugs in recent years have been introduced despite the use of misleading and tainted data on drug performance from the major pharmaceutical companies. Examples abound where they don't publish bad results, publish only partial results, mislead over context of results, structure trials to deliver a desired outcome, and so on. People have died because of this, and yet it continues. So you are wise to do your research, but do this same the next time you buy an OTC medicine or ask your doctor for a prescription.


          Yes, yes, I agree fully with this last paragraph, and thank you profusely for the response you give to my question in your first. I'm going to try to get in touch with Seegenschmiedt, although I doubt I could get across the pond to see him anytime soon owing to my job. Perhaps he knows something about who the best practitioners of RT are in the US? Seems to be such a wide variety here, including some who pretty clearly are coming at the thing more or less cluelessly and artlessly.
          best,
          Molloy

            01/26/2015 00:37
            Banz 
            01/26/2015 00:37
            Banz 
            Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

            Please post any good findings for radiation treatment in the US.

              01/26/2015 08:54
              wach 

              Administrator

              01/26/2015 08:54
              wach 

              Administrator

              Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

              I am not sure whether Prof. Seegenschmiedt will do any consultation without you seeing him. The radiotherapy per se is easy to apply, the benefit of an experienced doctor is diagnosis, palpation, and the definition ot the radiation field. Consultation via the internat is not meaningful and how could he charge for his consultation? I don't expect that he will rate his US colleagues either. It's probably better to ask these question in this forum.


              Wolfgang

              Molloy:

              ... I'm going to try to get in touch with Seegenschmiedt, although I doubt I could get across the pond to see him anytime soon owing to my job. Perhaps he knows something about who the best practitioners of RT are in the US? Seems to be such a wide variety here, including some who pretty clearly are coming at the thing more or less cluelessly and artlessly.
              best,
              Molloy

                01/27/2015 02:07
                Molloy 
                01/27/2015 02:07
                Molloy 
                Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                wach:
                I am not sure whether Prof. Seegenschmiedt will do any consultation without you seeing him. The radiotherapy per se is easy to apply, the benefit of an experienced doctor is diagnosis, palpation, and the definition ot the radiation field. Consultation via the internat is not meaningful and how could he charge for his consultation? I don't expect that he will rate his US colleagues either. It's probably better to ask these question in this forum.


                Wolfgang


                No, I don't expect that he will be able to tell me much via email, though I'll take a chance that he might know something useful about who is good on this in the US and be willing to share that information. I haven't been able to gather much here on reliable providers of RT in the US beyond recommendations that I look at the established list, which I've done. I've made contact with a few of the providers listed there within reasonable distance of me in the US, still trying to gather information.

                I also asked Seegenschmiedt if he could perhaps point me to any more detailed information on the claim that RT can potentially make later surgery more complicated or even impossible, which he implicitly discounts in one of the chapters in the book on RT for non-malignant conditions but without any explanation. Does anyone by any chance know where I can find more discussion of this in the literature?
                best,
                Molloy

                  01/27/2015 07:22
                  wach 

                  Administrator

                  01/27/2015 07:22
                  wach 

                  Administrator

                  Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                  The authors Betz et al. mention in their paper "Radiotherapy in Early Stage Dupuytren's Contracture - Long Term results after 13 Years" Strahlenther Onkol 186 (2010) p 82-90 in the paragraph on "late efects"

                  "Due to progression of disease ... 42 cases experienced a surgical procedure; in 2 cases (5%) a delayed wound healing was observed."

                  In a summary of complications after surgery by Keith Denkler http://www.eplasty.com/index.php?option=...&Itemid=116 wound healing complications are to be expected in 0-86%, average 23% of the cases. The 5 % observed by Betz et al. are well within this range and therefore probably not due to the prior irradiation.

                  In their abstract the authors are stating "In case of disease progression after radiotherapy, a "salvage" operation is still feasible."

                  Molloy:
                  I also asked Seegenschmiedt if he could perhaps point me to any more detailed information on the claim that RT can potentially make later surgery more complicated or even impossible, which he implicitly discounts in one of the chapters in the book on RT for non-malignant conditions but without any explanation. Does anyone by any chance know where I can find more discussion of this in the literature?
                  best,
                  Molloy

                    01/30/2015 21:12
                    Molloy 
                    01/30/2015 21:12
                    Molloy 
                    Re: Consistent pain and progression after RT

                    wach:
                    The authors Betz et al. mention in their paper "Radiotherapy in Early Stage Dupuytren's Contracture - Long Term results after 13 Years" Strahlenther Onkol 186 (2010) p 82-90 in the paragraph on "late efects"

                    "Due to progression of disease ... 42 cases experienced a surgical procedure; in 2 cases (5%) a delayed wound healing was observed."

                    In a summary of complications after surgery by Keith Denkler http://www.eplasty.com/index.php?option=...&Itemid=116 wound healing complications are to be expected in 0-86%, average 23% of the cases. The 5 % observed by Betz et al. are well within this range and therefore probably not due to the prior irradiation.

                    In their abstract the authors are stating "In case of disease progression after radiotherapy, a "salvage" operation is still feasible."


                    Wach, many thanks for this. Quite helpful clarification of this aspect of the literature.
                    best,
                    Molloy

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