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CIGNA Refusal to Cover
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07/23/2010 03:09
flojo 
07/23/2010 03:09
flojo 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

What if you presented documentation about the cost of surgery AND cost of NA for the same condition? We all know that surgery is going to cost a whole lot more. Seems like that would get the attention of the money grubbing insurance companies. Duh, they can save money if they do NA. Now, if they can make you go away and not do either, they will do that, I'm sure.

07/23/2010 17:41
callie 
07/23/2010 17:41
callie 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

flojo,

I don't think it is as "cut and dried" as you present the situation. I had a limited fasciectomy on a 90 degree contracture little finger 8 1/2 years ago. I still have zero signs (no contracture, no nodules) of Dupuytren's in my hand that I had surgery. I know that my outcome has been very good. But I remember asking my surgeon at the time if he ever had to repeat the surgery on anyone. He said that he hardly ever repeated the surgery.

07/23/2010 18:08
JPCyclist 
07/23/2010 18:08
JPCyclist 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

I appreciate the insight from everyone who has commented so far. One of the things that has become clear is that any research that has gone into recurrence, comparative cost of NA vs conventional surgery, etc., must be gathered. I don't believe that any conclusions can or should be drawn from our individual experiences, including mine where I saw my mother have seven surgeries (with all of the ensuing therapy periods). I do recall seeing at one time a study from France where it appeared that the recurrence was about equal, perhaps slightly more with NA.

Nothing is better than a research study published in a peer-reviewed journal. I have some experience in performing literature searches and intend to do this soon when I have some dedicated time and have sufficiently narrowed my search, however if anyone has run across any research, article citations, bibliographies, I would find it extremely useful if you would post them to this thread. Thank you.

By the way, my mother is 95 and in her case the growth has slowed so much that she has not had the need to do anything for years--probably 15-20 years!

07/23/2010 18:23
callie 
07/23/2010 18:23
callie 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

JPcyclist,

I think what is often overlooked is the great strides that have been made in micro surgery techniques compared to Dupuytren's surgery 15-25 years ago. My surgeon said the advancements have really had an impact on results.

07/23/2010 18:57
JPCyclist 
07/23/2010 18:57
JPCyclist 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

Callie,

It's possible that advances have been made that minimize the invasive nature of the surgery and the physical therapy required afterward. For me it wasn't so much the surgery itself, but the recovery that mattered (and the fact that risk of nicked tendon/nerve and recurrence were approximately the same). I'm very active and found that I did not want to have "down time" because my fingers were full of stitches (and possibly grafts and scar tissue).

When I first compared surgery and NA, about 10 years ago, I was amazed by the lack of knowledge of NA. I visited a young, well-respected hand surgeon, trained at Johns Hopkins, who did not know about NA. I knew way more than he did! I hope that advances in microsurgery are making a difference for there are some conditions that would favor surgery over NA in my mind. I would want to be sure that the surgeon was familiar with NA and that surgeons are spending about as much time learning NA as they are new microsurgery techniques. If they are, then I would still need to be convinced that NA is not the first way to go.

07/23/2010 19:55
callie 
07/23/2010 19:55
callie 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

I think the surgery (at least mine) was invasive as always. The advantage my surgeon said was that he felt that he was able to remove all of the diseased tissue surrounding the cord. He felt that leaving the diseased tissue made the recurrence inevitable with a faster rate of return.

07/23/2010 20:00
jimh 
07/23/2010 20:00
jimh 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

The surgeries which I had about 10 years ago were fairly successful. And those microsurgical tools and techniques definitely came into play, because the surgeon cut a nerve and had to repair it on the spot - to the extent he could. (I still have numbness in one finger.)

In 2 important areas of my hand, the conventional surgery succeeded in releasing the contractures, removing all the bad tissue, and there's been no recurrence. I definitely appreciate that result. But everything else about the surgery was an enormous hassle - months of tedious recovery during which I had to do everything one-handed and couldn't be physically active; tons of time spent in PT and exercises to maintain flexibility that might be lost to scar tissue.

Now I need another release, and there's just no way I'm going through that again. NA is preferrable even if it's only partially successful and has to be repeated every 2 years. There's just no comparison.

Edited 07/23/10 23:01

07/24/2010 06:09
wach 

Administrator

07/24/2010 06:09
wach 

Administrator

Recurrencer after NA and Fasciectomy

You might find a paper interesting that was presented by Annett van Rjissen at our Miami conference http://dupuytrensymposium.com/Abstracts/Van_Rijssen.pdf. It will be published in the peer reviewed proceedings of the conference which will appear sometimes next year as a book published by Springer. Van Rjissen finds an average recurrence period of NA of 2.3 years and of limited fasciectomy of 3.7 years, the latter being much better but still not impressive. In detail you might wonder e.g. whether the surgical cases were the more sever ones and thus likely subject to recurrence. or whether different surgical techniques might yield better recurrence data But this study still might indicate an order of magnitude.

Wolfgang

JPCyclist:
I appreciate the insight from everyone who has commented so far. One of the things that has become clear is that any research that has gone into recurrence, comparative cost of NA vs conventional surgery, etc., must be gathered. I don't believe that any conclusions can or should be drawn from our individual experiences, including mine where I saw my mother have seven surgeries (with all of the ensuing therapy periods). I do recall seeing at one time a study from France where it appeared that the recurrence was about equal, perhaps slightly more with NA.

Nothing is better than a research study published in a peer-reviewed journal. I have some experience in performing literature searches and intend to do this soon when I have some dedicated time and have sufficiently narrowed my search, however if anyone has run across any research, article citations, bibliographies, I would find it extremely useful if you would post them to this thread. Thank you.

By the way, my mother is 95 and in her case the growth has slowed so much that she has not had the need to do anything for years--probably 15-20 years!

07/24/2010 13:23
callie 
07/24/2010 13:23
callie 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

Wolfgang,
You really didn't do justice to the data by the statement you made. You said, "Van Rjissen finds an average recurrence period of NA of 2.3 years and of limited fasciectomy of 3.7 years, the latter being much better but still not impressive.". You left out the very important recurrence rate of 85% for NA and only a 23.8 percent for the limited fasciectomy group.

This is significant from the provided link:

"The recurrence rate in the PNF (NA) group was 85%. Recurrence occurred after a mean of 2.3yrs. None
had an extension at that time. Of the recurrences 9 were treated by LF, 25 again by PNF and 12
patients chose not to undergo secondary treatment. The recurrence rate in the LF (limited fasciectomy) group was 23.8%.
Recurrences occurred after a mean of 3.7 years.
One patient had extension of the disease (2.4%). Of
the recurrences 4 were treated by PNF, and the rest (6 patients) chose not to undergo secondary
treatment.
The recurrence rate of PNF was statistically higher than of LF(p = 0.00). The mean time to recurrence
of PNF was much shorter than that of LF and this was also statistically significant (p = 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS: Recurrences are far more frequent and occur sooner after PNF. Most patients that
had undergone PNF were nevertheless still satisfied with the result and chose it again as treatment
modality."

Edited 07/25/10 01:53

07/24/2010 23:47
JPCyclist 
07/24/2010 23:47
JPCyclist 
Re: CIGNA Refusal to Cover

Interesting statistics.

If we were to generalize on the recurrence at 2.3 years vs 3.7 years (which I know we are probably not wise in doing), over approximately 11 years with PNF, we would have 5 procedures with a recovery time (generously) of approximately a week each, so 5 weeks of down time. With LF over approximately the same period we would have had 3 surgeries with a recovery time of approximately 6 weeks each and a total of 18 weeks down time. It's not really a good idea to make these kinds of conclusions, but the point is that recurrence leading to PNF and recurrence leading to LF are not comparable if you want to avoid downtime, to say nothing about the expense, etc.

A word on the expense - in France the procedure was performed by the doctor in his office. In the US my NA procedure was performed by a doctor and two attendants; one to assist and one to watch the monitor I was plugged into. I'm a perfectly healthy individual and did not require any additional monitoring. I don't want to discourage NA in the US because it is still preferable in most cases to surgery. The problem is endemic with our system and I almost feel that it is hopeless to think it will improve since in our suit-happy society the medical practice must protect itself from the legal profession, whilst the insurers keep the meter running. I would still wager, though, that the cost of NA in the US is an order of magnitude less than surgery.

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