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Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro
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01/28/2013 21:37
Danch 
01/28/2013 21:37
Danch 
Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Hi!

My name is Dan. What a wonderful and most helpful website I have come across!

My story... hopefully in short.

About 6 years ago, I was a window washer. I jammed my index finger into one of the window corners, and the next day had a bump on my left index finger's knuckle on the top part of the finger (sorry, do not recall the technical term). I did not have insurance at this time, and my current boss was giving me a hard time about workman's comp to cover it... blah blah. So 5 years pass, and this growth on my finger never went away. It restricted my movement and the pain later came. I play(ed) guitar and piano... that was at times a very painful experience. I received "treatment" last year for this through a surgeon, since my new job offered health insurance. To say the least, it was not a good experience dealing with this surgeon.

After the op, at the post op follow up a week later, I was told that the "biopsy shows that I have Dupuytren's disease". I was rushed out of there, no consolation, vague answers to my questions (I asked about therapy - he said no), just a piece of paper, and the fellow speaking with me knew nothing of dupuytrens, as he admitted. They wanted to have nothing to do with me. To me, hearing that was devastating, but I resolved to research this. After a year or so of researching, I have discovered (among many things) that biopsy does not necessarily show that one has dupuytrens, as it is not easily identifiable without obvious evidence. Plus, this was on the knuckle, on the outside of my finger. Not common, as I recall reading.

After my surgery, within months, I grew another node on the opposite hand, on my pinky, on the same middle knuckle. It is much more painful. Months after that, I now have a nodule on my thumb, inside, midway, and also on my index finger on the soft, inside part, just opposite of where I had the original operation.

I am beside myself. I dont want to go back. I dont trust them. I would rather travel to Mayo clinic, or some specialist than deal with these people who "wrote me off".

Part of me thinks that this may not be dupuytrens, but something else. I have no contraction at this point, as that would be absolute evidence. But could it be something else? Acute tendonitis? Something else?

Any input would be most appreciated!

Dan

Edited 01/28/13 23:48

01/28/2013 22:06
callie 
01/28/2013 22:06
callie 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

You must realize that you won't get a medical diagnosis here. But, what you are saying does not sound like Dupuytren's. Generally there is very little pain with Dupuytren's, albeit discomfort is not abnormal. You could have "knuckle pads" which are associated with Dupuytren's on the backs of your hand. They can be sensitive when bumped. Dupuytren's nodules closely resemble a callus.

Are you familiar with ganglion cysts?

01/28/2013 22:20
Danch 
01/28/2013 22:20
Danch 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

callie:
You must realize that you won't get a medical diagnosis here. But, what you are saying does not sound like Dupuytren's. Generally there is very little pain with Dupuytren's, albeit discomfort is not abnormal. You could have "knuckle pads" which are associated with Dupuytren's on the backs of your hand. They can be sensitive when bumped. Dupuytren's nodules closely resemble a callus.

Are you familiar with ganglion cysts?

Thats kind of what I thought, so you confirmed that - in regards to it possibly not being Dupuytrens. Thanks! I do understand that I will not get a diagnosis here. I would not expect that. Its just one more step in my research of my debacle (and since I was diagnosed with it), and hearing what others may have to say on it, may give me comfort and encouragement, and hints on what possibly to do next. But if that is beyond this forum, then maybe I will just go away.

I did read that there was, generally speaking, no pain. Well, the nodules i recently developed on the soft underside of my thumb and index do seem to be callus-like, with no pain. However, I think the placement on the upper/outside (dorsal?) of nodules that have been on my index finger (now removed and biopsied) and currently on my pinky finger, may be more conducive to pain, because of their placement. But what I have read points in other directions, away from dupuytrens. Hence my questioning of their diognosis.

Yes. My PCP thought it was a ganglion cycst. But apparently... according to the surgeon and the biopsy, it was not a cycst? So I am beside myself on this diagnosis. Which is why I am here. BTW... the first x-ray showed nothing. Not sure if a cyst would show, much less a nodule.

I just dont know what to do or who to see at this point.

Edited 01/29/13 00:35

01/28/2013 22:57
Randy_H 
01/28/2013 22:57
Randy_H 

Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Your experience doesn't make too much sense to me, as hand surgeons will not attempt surgery for Dups unless there is a contraction. And most surgeons would recognize Dups just by looking at it. Did you see a Certified Hand Surgeon (CHS)?
Did he think it was something else before he operated?

Under magnification a hand surgeon can identify Dups tissue. Typically they open up the hand and remove all such tissue they can identify. It is believed that physical trauma to the hand can trigger growth of Dups tissue. So considering what you've said you probably do have Dups. or related knuckle pads. Keep a sharp eye on your palms, looking for little lumps and bumps. Those nearly always develop it it's Dups.. It's rare to have it only in the fingers.

Cortisone injections are useful to reduce pain and soften the bumps in the palm. I've had that done and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. However, I've not heard of that being done on the fingers. Perhaps that might help if you can find someone to do it.
It is painful so I'd have them numb the finger first.

01/28/2013 23:18
Danch 
01/28/2013 23:18
Danch 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Randy_H:
Your experience doesn't make too much sense to me, as hand surgeons will not attempt surgery for Dups unless there is a contraction. And most surgeons would recognize Dups just by looking at it. Did you see a Certified Hand Surgeon (CHS)?
Did he think it was something else before he operated?

Under magnification a hand surgeon can identify Dups tissue. Typically they open up the hand and remove all such tissue they can identify. It is believed that physical trauma to the hand can trigger growth of Dups tissue. So considering what you've said you probably do have Dups. or related knuckle pads. Keep a sharp eye on your palms, looking for little lumps and bumps. Those nearly always develop it it's Dups.. It's rare to have it only in the fingers.

Cortisone injections are useful to reduce pain and soften the bumps in the palm. I've had that done and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. However, I've not heard of that being done on the fingers. Perhaps that might help if you can find someone to do it.
It is painful so I'd have them numb the finger first.

Thanks for the response Randy. Well, it probably doesnt make sense because I left out some details to make this thread more direct as possible. And you are right. It DOESNT make sense, from what I have shared. Yes, he was a certified hand surgeon. He could not say what it was, stating that they would only know after they removed it - so the very first thing, aside from the x-ray, was to operate - and THEN determine what it was. He did ask me while removing it, if it had been traumatized (I had it done local anesthetic - so I was coherent through the procedure). Im not sure what that means exactly - traumatized - how? He sounded upset, as he had asked me if I had traumatized it before... which... I never did to my knowledge, other than it being there for 4/5+ years... which probably could be traumatizing in and of itself.

It is new to me, that a biopsy (under magnification) can identify Dups tissue. That is good info. Do you know where I could reference that material? Its okay if not, at least now I have a different point to consider.

I have considered steroidal injections, as it worked for my frozen shoulder really well. But I imagine it would be much more painful of an injection in these particular spots. But I should have that done. I think that would be much more appropriate at this point, rather than invasive surgery as previous. I will have to locate someone, hopefully close by, with Dupuytrens experience... hopefully.

Thank you so much for the input. Much appreciated.

Edited 01/29/13 01:20

01/29/2013 00:27
flojo 
01/29/2013 00:27
flojo 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

I suggest a second opinion with another Certified Hand Specialist. Look at the list of doctors and clinics on this site.

It sounds like it may be Dupuytren's in the nodule stage. If so, radiation threapy (RT) would definitely be worth considering.

01/29/2013 00:46
Danch 
01/29/2013 00:46
Danch 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

flojo:
I suggest a second opinion with another Certified Hand Specialist. Look at the list of doctors and clinics on this site.

It sounds like it may be Dupuytren's in the nodule stage. If so, radiation threapy (RT) would definitely be worth considering.

Thank you! Welll... I had not thought of RT as of yet, and would like to avoid it if thats okay. But hopefully I will find a good practitioner to guide me in the right direction.

01/29/2013 04:51
Randy_H 
01/29/2013 04:51
Randy_H 

Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Considering the fact hat a CHS observed your removed tissue and said it was Dups and that you have had frozen shoulder would lead me to believe that you have Dups. I have had FS as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11307078

Yep, Dups and Frozen Shoulder are statistically related. In fact it’s errant scar tissue that they need to break up in Frozen Shoulder. Its scar tissue gone nuts in you hand that makes up Dups tissue.

Don’t worry. It’s not like Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something. There are a lot worse diseases you could have instead. Personally I’ll keep the Dups rather than reach into some grab bag of possible ailments and trade it for whatever I might draw instead. We now can avoid most surgery with non-invasive procedures so it’s not nearly as bad as it was 50 years ago.

“The diseased tissue of Dupuytren's presents as nodules and cords, each of which has a distinctive appearance under the microscope…”

http://drdavidslutsky.com/procedures/dupuytren_disease.html

01/29/2013 05:12
Danch 
01/29/2013 05:12
Danch 
Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Randy_H:
Considering the fact hat a CHS observed your removed tissue and said it was Dups and that you have had frozen shoulder would lead me to believe that you have Dups. I have had FS as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11307078

Yep, Dups and Frozen Shoulder are statistically related. In fact it’s errant scar tissue that they need to break up in Frozen Shoulder. Its scar tissue gone nuts in you hand that makes up Dups tissue.

Don’t worry. It’s not like Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something. There are a lot worse diseases you could have instead. Personally I’ll keep the Dups rather than reach into some grab bag of possible ailments and trade it for whatever I might draw instead. We now can avoid most surgery with non-invasive procedures so it’s not nearly as bad as it was 50 years ago.

“The diseased tissue of Dupuytren's presents as nodules and cords, each of which has a distinctive appearance under the microscope…”

http://drdavidslutsky.com/procedures/dupuytren_disease.html

Thanks for the astute attention to what I wrote, and your answer. Yes, I had wondered about my frozen shoulder being a part of it. Many folks I have spoken too thought me crazy for making a connection. But your input further attests to my thinking. Okay. So I do most likely, indeed have dupuytrens. And indeed, its much less than could be in regards to ailments. Now on to treatment... hopefully though, maybe finding someone, a specialist, here.. that would know more about treatment.

Lol. Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Heh. Good one! Gotta have a laugh.

I cant thank you enough, for your response!

01/29/2013 06:31
Randy_H 
01/29/2013 06:31
Randy_H 

Re: Question of authenticity of biopsy and Intro

Danch,

Treatment is typically confined to the reduction of contractions of the fingers that can in time render the hand more and more useless. So essentially other than “releasing” a cord that is causing a finger to bend inward toward the palm, there is no “treatment” that I know of other than easing pain with Cortisone. I have found that to be effective.

The bottom line here is that Dups can be debilitating to the hand. Short of that it must be looked at as a sometimes painful inconvince by comparison. If your fingers are not contracting count yourself blessed and don’t even give it another thought…..except for possible RT.

Some Tips: Be kind to your hands. As an example, lets say I’ve just been to the best concert I’ve ever seen and now the performer(s) are being called up for a third standing ovation and I’m going nuts. I want to express my exuberance. But….I stopped clapping after the first standing ovation. Not worth it. Scream, yell, jump all around. Don’t make your hands hurt. Don’t make them ache. Just Don’t. You do so at the risk of triggering more growth of Dups tissue. Really.

Next: Don’t have surgery. Leave it the heck alone. What did you gain?

I know some here might think that extreme. But, I know exactly how I got this party started and I’m about to invite any more guests.

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