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Needle Aponevrotomy experiences
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12/03/2005 23:59
Mary Beth

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12/03/2005 23:59
Mary Beth

not registered

A quote regarding surgery damage

The following is a quote that I have posted many times in the past. However, with the unorganized manner of this forum's topics, I have no idea where it is in past topics. I pulled my huge dog-eared notebook with many years of notes, websites and research on Dupuytrens out. This may be helpful. The site is http://www.ccmbel.org/History.html
and it is a combined history/treatment posting for Dupuytrens. At the bottom, in the conclusions section is the following:

"without clear answers to these questions, the surgical approach of Dupuytrens disease has swayed from the very simple closed fasciotomy to the very aggressive radical palmar fasciectomy. The less traumatising techniques were often found insufficient to correct the contracture and to bring lasting improvement. The more aggressive operations were developed on the unfounded hope that recurrences could be avoided. This has never been proven and these techniques were responsible for a great number of complications."

This was published prior to NA being performed in the US. It is comparing a "traditional type" (my words) fasciotomy with a fasciectomy. Fasciotomies were the "first" surgeries/treatments for Dups. They are much the same as an NA procedure. The "closed fasciotomy" is much the same as NA, but utilizing a scalpel instead of a needle. The "open fasciotomy" is more of a surgery, where flaps of skin are cut so that it is not a blind procedure as NA and a closed fasciotomy are. This writer's conclusions (again prior to NA being performed in the US) was that these techniques "fasciectomies" were responsible for a great number of complications.
In the case of my husband, and others that I know and/or have communicated with, they experienced their nerve damage from fasciectomies, not from NA.
Hope this helps someone have a little more information that they may be seeking.
The fasciotomies were gotten away from because of recurrence, which we all know can be common with NA as well. How much of a problem it is varies from one sufferer to another.

12/03/2005 23:32
Sam 
12/03/2005 23:32
Sam 
Nerve Damage

Randy,

Dr. Eaton cannot make this claim unless and until it is presented to the medical community and I don't believe he would. Just saying "statistically" does not make it so. Why in the world can'ts you admit that you don't know, that no one has proved NA is safter than surgery and most of all, that getting NA on less advanced cases than those that need surgery is a STUPID, STUPID comparison.

In fact, if you have ever read Dr. Eaton's web site (and I have!), it states that NA is not for everyone and depending on your particular case, you may need surgery. That's not a quote, but the context is correct. So, Dr. Eaton says NA is not for everyone, but you say he says it is?

It is downright stupid of you to keep blending all conditions into one pot and say that is a fact. You have no idea what you are talking about and it shows in the fact that you avoid the issue, don't answer questions and keep saying stupid things.

By, the way, what about Sean? That's the question I'm interested in. Please tell the world, why you seem to hate Sean and call anyone who questions you Sean? Must a great story.

12/03/2005 23:23
Tricia

not registered

12/03/2005 23:23
Tricia

not registered

Tendon Damage Question

I emailed a Hand Surgeon at Kaiser to ask him about NA as an alternative to OS and the segment in paranthesis below is his reply to me. I was wondering if anyone has heard of someone experiencing tendon damage as a result of NA??


(I have no personal experience with this technique but on Wednesday of this week I am doing a tendon reconstruction on a patient who had a needle aponeurotomy with Dr.****. THis is a disastrous complication and I would not recommend the technique. In general, Kaiser will not refer to an outside surgeon for a problem that can be taken care of within our system. His technique is far from well accepted and is not done by any other hand surgeons I know in the bay area.

Please let me know if you have other questions.)

12/04/2005 23:11
Graeme

not registered

12/04/2005 23:11
Graeme

not registered

NA nerve damage

Tricia

I have read your post and find difficulty in accepting your story.
It is indeed very rare or perhaps should I say quite stupid of a Dr to point the finger at another Dr - in essence saying their surgery and or proceedure is incompetent/negligent. Slander/libel laws are very expensive to deal with.
Without a comprehensive breakdown of the facts that lie behind this story I feel one must be sceptical indeed.
Who is the patient? Will they tell us their story?
NA nerve damage can happen but as Randy points out it is much less than OS. I've had two hand operations and both have residual nerve damage.A 100% nerve damage rate.

12/04/2005 23:55
Person of Concern

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12/04/2005 23:55
Person of Concern

not registered

Follow Up

I do not necessarily believe Tricias story however my first question would be, did this supposed severing of a tendon occur at the hands of an Paris-trained NA practitioner or a self-taught doctor?

Person of Concern

12/04/2005 23:09
Person of Concern

not registered

12/04/2005 23:09
Person of Concern

not registered

Follow Up

Please accept my appologies, there was no reference to a severed tendon - only the need for a 'tendon reconstrucion'. The question still stands, if this acctually occured, was the doctor Paris-trained or not?

Person of Concern

12/04/2005 23:15
Tricia

not registered

12/04/2005 23:15
Tricia

not registered

Follow Up

You are correct---it was very odd to get such an email from this surgeon. Especially in this litigious society. I continue to be disturbed by how shut down and closed most US surgeons are to any kind of alternative to OS. We continue our support of NA. In fact, my partner is scheduled to have NA on her left hand this Thursday. I am still interested in finding out---has anyone out there personally experienced a tendon problem following NA?

She had OS on her right hand in 2003 and it was not a very pleasant year for her following it. In fact, while she is severely impacted with dupuytren's in her left hand, we have been on a search ever since for an alternative to OS.

We have interviewed many surgeons and have never felt comfortable with their lax attitudes. I have been conducting research to find an alternative to OS and have had emails with the Paris Clinic, with Dr. Eaton, with Dr. Pess, with Dr. Barry, and Dr. Denkler.

The doctor who will be performing the NA this Thursday has asked her permission to have a film crew document the NA procedure. She has agreed in hopes that NA can become a viable option in this country.

I will post the results of how the NA goes on Thursday. If Thursday is a success for her left hand, and the doctor determines her right hand to be a NA candidate (remember she had OS and sometimes this can interfere with being able to have NA due to scarring), then she is already scheduled for the 29th of December for her right hand.

Please hold the collective positive thoughts for her Thurday, (as well as for all the other individuals who have dupuytren's.)

12/04/2005 23:02
Randy H.

not registered

12/04/2005 23:02
Randy H.

not registered

Randy

While Eaton's rate of NA nerve damage (Zero) is proving to be statistically lower than with OS**(1), nerve damage is certainly not the *only* thing that can go wrong in an invasive hand procedure, and this certainly the case with NA as well as OS. With NA catching on in the US exponentially, eventually we will have *verifyable* negative side effects reported here. As yet we do *not*. Non verifiable third hand doesn't not qualify.

Eaton decided not to allow my NA procedure to be filmed. He was concerned that someone less qualified (a non CHS) would be motivated to attempt NA without the proper instruction. Though it's great to see the quickly expanding number of doctors now offering NA, at some point less qualified doctors may get involved. Personally, I'd only trust my hand to a CHS who has been instructed in France or in the US by someone with a lot of NA experience. If we do that, the rates of lower collateral damage and side effects will continue to validate the French study**(2)

References:

**(1) See: http://www.handcenter.org/newfile23.htm search on the word: "statistically"

**(2) See: http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/f.badois-dupuytren/html/gbdangereux.html

12/04/2005 23:33
Keith Denkler

not registered

12/04/2005 23:33
Keith Denkler

not registered

Randy

Just wanted to let you know I am leaving for Paris on Friday. I will be visitng with the French NA originators next week.
I have been thrilled with the results of NA so far.
The current offering for Dupuytren's surgery is a radical one, fasciectomy, by essentially all hand surgeons.
NA offers a simple, expeditious, procedure with dramatic improvement under local anesthesia as an office procedure.
It will be hard to convince the bulk of the CHS that this "blind" procedure has merit and should be the first offered to the patient, rather than a major invasive surgery.
Like the data previously published by the French rheumatologists, and by Dr. Foucher, the complication rate is very low. I did re-explore a patient, under local anesthesia with nerve injury "numbness" I alluded to in a different thread. There was no nerve transection, only a poke from the needle, with the sheath being intact. A nerve "poke from a small needle should heal just fine. I don't know the final result yet, but nerves in the finger regenerate, it just takes months.
Surgery itself, has nerve damage rate of about 2-3% and a much higher rate, perhaps 15-20% in surgery for recurrent disease.
Most Dupuytren's, especially in the palm is central. The nerves are lateral. Staying superficial and central protects the nerves from damage.
During surgery, of which I have done hundreds, bad things can happen. Nerves can tear, or inadvertently be damaged dissecting off the this gristle like Dupuytren's cords.
The biggest problem for NA is lateral disease especially around the middle (PIP) joint where the nerves are very superficial. Plus PIP joint disease may have Dupuytren's posterior to the neruovascular bundle and a blind, deep needle relase in this area is too dangerous.
Overall the results are very good for MCP disease, fair to good, occasionally great for PIP disease.
I do think hand therapy is good for PIP disease since static and active correction and prevention of contractures is necessary.
Ketih
PS I do think radiotherapy has some value and I applaud Wolfgangs efforts. I think the fingers should be as straight as possible first.
I also await the release of Cordase, but I cannot get this and it is not out yet for use by physicians outside of clinical studies.

12/04/2005 23:52
Randy H.

not registered

12/04/2005 23:52
Randy H.

not registered

Have a great Trip!

Dr. Denkler,

Many of us *very* much appreciate your input to this Forum, your continued promotion of NA as a legitimate first line of defense when indicated, and your willingness to touch base with the French.

What advantage do you see Cordase having over NA? I would hope it would fill in the gap for NA in difficult PIP situations (at the very least our host deserves *some* recognition and positive press once in a while!)

Thanks again. Have a great trip.

Randy

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