| Interesting articles from UK NHS |
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03/14/2006 23:37
Francesnot registered
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03/14/2006 23:37
Francesnot registered
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Confused
Hi Marjorie,
I did not get a single response to my call for people who might be interested in funding an surgeon to go over.
However, the process of doing the cost of such a venture was extremely helpful. When I was speaking with people in our govt references to cost were readily available ie: '....hotel/food/airfare for one week would cost about five grand but that's do-able because the the training is *free*...we should try and take advantage of this while we can...'. That always got a shocked silence followed with lots of agreement. Don't forget this point when you are speaking with people who count.
As predicted there were concerns about lost wages for the surgeon while in training. I guest-imated $10,000CDN would cover it....so $15,000CDN would be what it would cost to send someone over to save our health system and *us* a pile of money.
Frankly three people donating $5,000 could save hours and hours of letter writing, meetings, stress, etc.... Hubby and I talked about it, and ya, we'd be willing to do that. It would save money and aggravation for us in the long run. We are in a 'Just pay for it world' are we not? And this thing is affordable for sure.
Thanks for inquiring,
Frances
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03/14/2006 23:40
Francesnot registered
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03/14/2006 23:40
Francesnot registered
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Confused
Woops...we'd be willing to donate $5,000 not the whole amount...can't afford it.
Frances
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03/15/2006 23:51
Randy H.not registered
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03/15/2006 23:51
Randy H.not registered
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Confused
Francis,
You really put your money where your mouth is. You are a no fool'en NA advocate who isn't kidding for one-second. Your are unselfish in your desire to help ease the pain of those who have a disease you personally don't even have.
You shouldn't have to do this.
However, there you are, down on your knees, begging some CHS not to invest his own money to learn a procedure that if he had an open mind would gladly pay his own way. At this early stage, the conversion to NA looks to be, on a professional level, almost a religious experience for the CHS who "sees the light". They change their practice, change their web sites, (or create new ones), go on TV and become almost messianic in their vision. No mercenary does that.
I'm humbled and proud of your offer, but do you really think you want to recruit a mercenary who would take a subsidy to learn a procedure he should be jumping up and down about if he really *understood* what this could mean for his patients? What kind of a guy would that be?
Your heart is so much in the right place, but think it through. It makes me angry that you must consider paying a CHS to get a clue about a procedure he should be thanking us that we brought to his attention. This whole thing bothers me.
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03/15/2006 23:08
Francesnot registered
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03/15/2006 23:08
Francesnot registered
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Understandable
Hi Randy,
1) No I personally do not have DC but husband does and it is both our money.
2) My own brother and sister have DC, I am 42 so it could simply be a matter of a few years before I join your ranks,
3) we have children who have DC on both sides of the family,
4) I totally agree that surgeons should be doing this for the joy of medicine but that is an idealistic point of view. There are many factors that can affect what a surgeon wants to do but can do - being busy is one.
5) The dollar valued being considered is one week in Paris while they train and $10,000 to cover lost wages that *they would have earned anyways*. No big deal.
6) We haven't approached any surgeons yet because we have no other takers so don't be mad at the doctors - they haven't said 'Pay me or else'. This idea is strictly my own because I am impatient, lazy, and am acutely aware of the long-term financial benefits to *our own family* if there is an NA surgeon within Ontario and if NA is covered by our OHIP. .
7)It gets attention when you put your money where you mouth is - the tone changed to serious when I was speaking with govt ppl. They no longer considered me one of the many who want something for free. After all...I was showing a way to reduce healthcare costs and offering to pay to help make that happen. That'll get any govt officials attention for sure. On that same vein, I was considering pointing out what a wonderful public PR thing bringing NA could be for our new conservative govt if they financed it themselves. ;-) Let's be real, there has to be something in it for them too. Everyone is tired of doing things for free. Heck, even we're considering doing this for the savings it will bring, not for kindness, but for the cold hard cash we'll get to keep and time out of our lives.
Frances
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03/15/2006 23:33
Francesnot registered
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03/15/2006 23:33
Francesnot registered
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Playing the game
Hi again Randy,
Sorry my previous post was so abrupt, I was trying to get it done before I went to pick up the young'un.
....I guess after a little more thought...my direct answer is 'No, I don't mind if a doctor is mercenary for money... so long as they know how to do the job right.'
...and to futher trudge the mercenary road...I was thinking of people who live in small towns might benefit from openly supporting their political party. I say this because during one of my calls I did point out that I had voted for the person and that there was a sign on our lawn during last federal election. It got me a warm reception and I believe a little extra time to explain NA. Being a consitituatant has its small benefits.
Ultimately Randy the ugly reality is that here in Canada anything new arrives years after everyone else has it...I'm not willing to let that happen with NA. So...right now I'm just brainstorming and gently feeling the way with phone calls. It will all unfold as it's supposed to...for all I know...our own MPP has DC himself and is more then willing to help further the cause.
Frances
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03/15/2006 23:39
Randy H. not registered
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03/15/2006 23:39
Randy H. not registered
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Discounted Educational Loan?
Francis,
Well, then, you might want to consider saving some money and sending your candidate to Denkler in Northern CA. He has no qualms about instructing other qualified surgeons. He himself is FT so his pedigree is stellar by any standards. I would even suggest that as a former CHS he would speak the same language as your CHS candidate. Not to take anything away form the French, but it may be time to Snatch The Pebble from Their Hands.
Even though you make a good practical argument for subsidizing the enlightenment of some CHS, it still upsets me that you should need to do that. Maybe you can ask for 5% of his NA fees until you are paid back. What's he got to loose?
If you save a few bucks with the Denkler "Discount NA training", it might be just $10,000. That means your are even once the guy hits $200,000 in fees. At $700 a pop that's 286 procedures. We'll have a thread here called "Just Got Back from that Super Canadian NA Guy". You'll be paid back in no time :-)
RBH
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03/15/2006 23:38
Francesnot registered
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03/15/2006 23:38
Francesnot registered
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Progress
Hi Randy,
I agree about the pedigree issue but don't see how it could it save money to go to Dr Denkler. Hotel costs are expensive no matter where you go, airfare from Toronto to Paris is less expensive then Toronto to California - then there is the issue of the training fees...France doesn't charge...does Dr. Denkler?
Frances
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03/15/2006 23:05
Francesnot registered
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03/15/2006 23:05
Francesnot registered
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Progress
Shoot...hit return too soon. Randy our system is different then yours, we don't have the free-market system of medicine. Doctors are not allowed to take money for medical procedures unless they are cosmetic. So a surgeon who wanted to perform NA would have to learn it, then approach OHIP to ask for it to be covered. So if I get a doctor to go learn, the ohip thing will have to follow for NA to be practiced in Ontario which will ultimately mean DC patients will not have any future costs once there is an NA practitioner here.
You have seen me mention BC and Manitoba in another thread, that is because there are surgeons in those provinces who are attempting to bring in private pay-for-use clinics and I have to wonder if they would be interested in bringing NA to Canada as a start if we can not get anyone in Ontario.
As for the $700/finger thing, frankly I think it's outrageous. My god, you can get a European vacation, get your hands done and still have money left in your pocket at the end of the day.
Frances
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03/15/2006 23:53
Randy H. not registered
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03/15/2006 23:53
Randy H. not registered
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Progress
How abut Dr. Press? I think I remember reading that he has done some instruction. He's the closest. It should be a three day trip at most. Fly home after the second day of instruction. You might want to see if Press is interested. As you know, he's FT as well.
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03/17/2006 23:13
Francesnot registered
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03/17/2006 23:13
Francesnot registered
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Progress
Hi Randy,
Like I said, I totally agree with the pedigree thing; any doctor who has gone to France is qualified to pass it on, but they don't charge in France. Plus it would be good to start the pedigree from scratch here in Canada as well.
France
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