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Needle Aponevrotomy experiences
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11/19/2002 23:26
disgusted

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11/19/2002 23:26
disgusted

not registered

compulsive


It might be worthwhile to spend more time playing golf, and less time responding compulsively to every posting that occurs on this forum. It would probably make everyone happier...

11/19/2002 23:34
Mike K

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11/19/2002 23:34
Mike K

not registered

Another view...

To Gary Evans: Lighten up a bit. I think it is obvious to all that read these forums that you have an agenda, so don’t be so defensive when someone calls you on it. You do however, raise some interesting points, and I enjoy you sharing your research with the forum, biased though it may be.

To Kristen: What a great post. Informative and witty…..and I agree with all your points, except maybe for bopping Gary upside the head. I personally have been to Europe twice for NA. Once to Paris two years ago (I posted about my experience in June 2000 under the heading “French Connection”), and once recently to Switzerland. Absolutely no recurrence after the first procedure performed by Dr. Badois (55 degree contracture of the ring metacarpophalangeal joint right hand), and hopefully an equally successful result from the procedure performed by the very affable and competent Dr. Rapapport in Yverdon. (90+ degree contracture of the PIP joint little finger right hand).

To Others: Regardless of what Gary has stated, NA performed on a digit with 90 degree contracture IS a viable alternative to surgery. The PIP joint that Dr. Rapapport treated is at present about 5 degrees and I have little doubt it will be perfectly straight after wearing my splint for about a month. I have before pictures and intend to post those along with the after pictures on my website in about a month. Will post the URL here for those that are interested. If it recurs…so be it. I will look upon it as another wonderful opportunity to see a part of Europe. For those concerned about the expenses, I suggest you read other posts addressing that issue in these forums. As a dentist, I factor in the time I would have to be out of the office with traditional surgery as a *huge* expense. With NA I am able to start treating patients immediately. Of course, your mileage may vary.

One other point that I have not found mentioned elsewhere. After the NA performed by Dr. Badois, I noticed that after a period of a couple of months the remaining parts the cord that was severed simply were resorbed by the body. I feel this is important. I am sure it does not occur in all cases, but the fact remains that once the whole of the cord was severed, in my case, the remaining pathologic tissue simply disappeared. I could envision some interesting research emanating from this phenomenon.

11/19/2002 23:40
Jan

not registered

11/19/2002 23:40
Jan

not registered

my laugh for the day

I wasn't going to post in this forum anymore due to the presence of the senile one who tries to control everyone's opinions but his own..... But Kristen's comment today was so funny and right on the mark! Hahahahahahaaaaaa..thank you Kristen!

11/19/2002 23:43
Gary Evans

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11/19/2002 23:43
Gary Evans

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Simple question

Mike,
My question again, Why NA instead of a local fasciotomy that severs the cord only and is not invasive and is an "in and out procedure" with a local anesthetic? It does exactly the same as NA. It is done everyday in the U.S. Simple procedure. Simple question. What about that question causes anger and denouncement of the medical establishment in the world? Do you also think the AMA is a worthless group of people? Do you also think hand surgeons around the world are incompetent? Is it just with Dupuytren's that they are incompetent or are they that way with all hand surgeries?
I am not promoting having a local fasciotomy, because I don't think it is as good as a limited fasciectomy. I am not promoting a limited fasciectomy either, but it is the most common procedure worldwide for Dupuytren's.
Gary

11/19/2002 23:19
Mike K

not registered

11/19/2002 23:19
Mike K

not registered

Needle Aponevrotomy

Gary,

To answer your question, I don’t know. Frankly, I was not even aware that the option existed. It certainly caught my attention when I started reading your posts about the procedure. I am definitely going to do some research. It does indeed sound like a simple procedure. Would you, by any chance, have a ballpark figure of what such a procedure would cost?

I certainly do not denounce the medical establishment or the AMA. Having done surgery myself for over 25 years, albeit in a different arena, I consider myself a part of the medical community. I would love to know your credentials. Are you also a doctor by any chance?

Mike

11/19/2002 23:37
Gary Evans

not registered

11/19/2002 23:37
Gary Evans

not registered

Fasciotomy

Mike,
It is a procedure used all of the time for older people who, in the opinion of a surgeon, should not go through an invasive surgery. It is also done when recurrence in older patients is not usually a problem. Remember, the later in life a person needs surgery for DC, the greater the chance that their first surgery will be their last. When the surgeon looked at my hand (90 degrees contracture), he said he was tempted to "pop the cord" right then. He was not completely serious at that time, but it was then that he told me that it was standard procedure for older patients. It was his belief, after doing this for over 30 years, that the local fasciotomy wasn't as good as the limited fasciectomy for a younger person because of recurrence.

No, I am not a Doctor, nor am I associated in any way with the "incompetent AMA". I am a person who had a limited fasciectomy 10 months ago on a finger that was 90 degrees contracted and is now 0 degrees and no different than before I contracted Dupuytren's.
Gary

11/19/2002 23:28
jay

not registered

11/19/2002 23:28
jay

not registered

fasciotomy

November 20 postings interesting. The debate goes on. After many months of following this forum this is the first I remember reading about palmar fasciotomy. Sources of more info? Clinic or doctors performing the procedure in the San Francisco area? Thanks

11/19/2002 23:58
jim h

not registered

11/19/2002 23:58
jim h

not registered

Dupuytren~sq~s Disease

Here's a good discussion of the various procedures (and some unpleasant photos):
http://www.emedicine.com/plastic/topic299.htm

I think the main advantage of NA over a fasciotomy is that NA is so minimally invasive that there's no scarring - so recovery is trivial, and the procedure can be repeated if necessary. A fasciotomy is a surgery, although less extensive than a fasiectomy.




11/19/2002 23:18
Gary Evans

not registered

11/19/2002 23:18
Gary Evans

not registered

Dupuytren~sq~s Disease

Jay,
This is straight from Raoul Tubiana's text, Dupuytren's Disease(2000):

"Fasciotomy is certainly a simple and safe technique when performeded at palmer level proximal to the distal palmer crease. It is also quick and therefore used to be advocated for elderly people and 'those whose general health precludes longer and more sophisticated surgery' (Bryan and Ghorbal, 1988). Fasciotomy is also best suited for well-defined and bow-stringing cords. Fasciotomy should certainly not be discarded from the surgeon's armory in treating Dupuytren's disease. Its use will depend upon the surgeon's experience and the patient's needs. It may be considered, in the presence of a well-defined palmer cord, for a patient requiring a quick short-term result, and aware that the long-term result will be less satisfactory and recurrence more likely than with some other techniques." (pgs. 136-137)

Also, same text page 135, "Several authors have studied the results of fasciotomy, especially the subcutaneous type. They all agree that despite the absence of any fascial excision, the remaining cord softens after fasciotomy, and eventually disappears. Hueston (1992) stresses that the resolution of the proximal segment may take up to 6 months, and that the distal segment may never disappear, and may even later progress if its digital attachments remain."

"For most authors, who restrict fasciotomy to the palmer level, this procedure is not suited for contractures predominant at the PIP joint level, as this joint will remain contracted after a palmer fasciotomy" (page 136)(Bryan and Ghorbal, 1988)

"the evidence indicates that recurrence of MP joint contracture is more likely after fasciotomy than after limited fasciectomy (Burge, 1994)." (page 136)

There are also pages devoted to Needle fasciotomy. "In these authors' experience, it was necessary to break two or three nodules/cords to obtain full extension of a finger with Stage II disease. The full length of the treatment thus lasted approximately 4 months. In a recent update of the technique (Badois et al.., 1993), it was reported that an average of 6 weeks was required to obtain full extension. From their experiences with 123 hands, Badois et al. (1993) report only minor complications. However, more severe complications have been observed by surgeons to whom patients came as a second referral.
"In the report of their long-term results, Badois et al. (1993) have found recurrences to be less frequent than the usual postsurgical rates but they did not include nodular recurrences in their patients' figures. If corrected accordingly, their rates become slightly higher than surgical ones.
When treating a palmer cord with this tecnique, one should not expect any long-term effect on the PIP joint. Even though extension of the PIP may be temporarily improved, recurrence of the deformity at this level is very quick."(pg. 129)

The 321 page book is interesting and full of great pictures.

Gary

11/20/2002 23:55
Kristen 
11/20/2002 23:55
Kristen 
Response to Mike K and Gary

Response to Mike K. and Gary

Mike – Nice to hear from you again. Your post a couple years ago was one of the many factors I considered when deciding between surgery and NA; in fact, I still have a printed copy of it. The fact that you are a medical professional and thoroughly investigated the options made a lot of us sit up and take note.

Gary – Nowhere did I bash U.S. surgeons. I have great respect for their skills and the board certification process. I stated clearly that they all gave me the straight poop on what I am up against and I simply chose not to avail myself of their skills. The one that read all the literature on NA, watched the videotape and then called to give me his educated opinion on the procedure has my greatest respect and appreciation.

As for trips to Europe not being available to “average” people, I beg to differ. I couldn’t be more average. You implied that I must be wealthy; tragically, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’m a librarian, for crying out loud. You’d be hard pressed to find a career requiring a Master’s degree with crappier salaries. “Librarians who fly the Concorde” is an extremely small club. I flew round trip last month (in a seat designed for an anorexic eight year old) for $564 on Air France. The very adequate hotel room was $130. Those with less of an aversion to cold weather than I can fly between now and March from the east coast of the U.S. for as little as $300. Forty years ago, trips to Europe were only for the wealthy; thankfully that has changed.

I now make a solemn vow to everyone on this forum that I will NEVER again respond to one of Gary’s posts. Kristen

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